I had hoped WG would change their minds on this one. Sadly, in this I was wrong.
World of Warships is a multiplayer warship battle game – you can sign up through: http://playtogether.worldofwarships.eu/invite/XDb11G5
Zoup and his American teenager idiot fanbase didn’t understand the fuss either.
Ignorance, pure ignorance.
Yep. Unsubscribed after I saw this and the comments section. Some of his vids were entertaining but this tipped the scale. The current culture of the US (and many other “advanced democracies”) is firmly in the mode of glorification of ignorance. Can be painful to live in the middle of.
Just unsubscribed him as well. I understood his general point, though I disagreed. What brought me to unsubscribe him though was the general tone and how he stated his points.
Sometime in war you have (for lack of abetter term) good guys and bad guys, ofter you have good guys who do some bad things , but more often than not you have two groups of bad guys…the dirty war is such a case.
BTW I stopped being a teenager shortly after the the end of the paleolithic era.
A small question. How do people feel about Nazi, Soviet, P.L.A.N. ships? If someone concerned about what the junta did, you should be absolutely apoplectic over what these 3 nations did.
Sorry I forgot the Imperial Japanese Navy.
possibly none of their ships involved were involved in massive warcrimes or genocide ? I can’t remember KMS Tirpitz or KMS Bismarck patrolling any deathcamp or participating in “disappearing” people in an national internal purge of the opposition. Yes German ships took part in surprise attack on neutral countries like Norway and Denmark, similar for the IJN. And so did the Royal Navy and US Navy in their attacks on Toulon and Tangier with the intent of wrecking a neutral countries fleet. Or the Soviet navy in their Winter War in Finland. BUT … none of their ships served as Death camps/torture facilities… in a civil PURGE by a govemrnment who had seized power in a coup…..is that point clear enough ?
I totally agree with you ,there is no need to have this ship in the game but i am not surprised Wargaming is doing this
Do i see an eagles flag? TRAITOR No but in all seriousness I do not get the reason wg used nuevo instead of one of the other billion usable ships that didn’t have such a history.
I see including her as the Boise, and ONLY the Boise, but why do we need to have a Pan American line?
MrDgwphotos money I guess
Like i said in the last video: “I’m argentinian and HOPE WG doesn’t change it’s name.” I was writing a huge wall of text trying to explain my position, tired of this kind of progressive “outrage”. But then i remembered that progressives in the UK still say “not al muslims” after every sinlge terror attack and grooming gang so my every single line was going to fall on deaf ears. I’m just glad WG’s greed and stubbornness prevailed over progressive whining (it’s a refreshing sight indeed).
This has nothing to do with progressiveness … I am as far from that as possible and I totally see the point and validity of what Jedi points out here. Your point is just rubbish and stupidly laid out. Congratz – fully in line with the worldwide faschist scum, which is far more oppressing than progressiveness. Effin Whataboutism!!
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. – Edmund Burke
I still think General Belgrano would’ve been a better choice. Much more famous, and actually saw combat in the Argentine Navy.
I’m glad someone else isnt stuck on the “outrage” band-wagon. Just buyed the Julio, and I love her.
The Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 were probably what you were searching for re what predates the Geneva convention.
And well put points, again. It’s so strange that WG went ahead with this.
I agree with you, out of all the ships of this class that went to the overseas nations.
This ships history has a troubled past. One that should be remenbered, investigated and talk about.
But not in an arcade (ish) computer game.
I think the word you’re looking for is nonchalance.
A long, long time ago, I was in the backyard of a Dutch car museum and was shown a 1940’s Mercedes Benz. The guy from the museum told me that it was hard to sell, because it had belonged to Goebbels. He was prepared to sell to anyone who could prove to him he was not a neo nazi and would not use the car for propaganda. So, in fact, I was offered Goebbel’s Mercedes. As I am not very rich, I did not have the money, nor did I have a garage to keep it dry from rain. So I turned away. But if I had had the money and the garage, I would have bought it. Not because it was Goebbel’s car, but because it was a beautiful car. I genuinly do not make any link between the machine and the history of that machine. So, sorry I cannot agree, Pointy. I do see your point, but in my mind it is too far-fetched. That said, your point is shared by many as that was precisely the reason why Goebbel’s Mercedes was for sale AND hard to sell .
This comparison is entirely apples and oranges. Wargamming has not bought Boise/Nueve de Julio herself, they’ve made a representation of her in a video game. I wish Boise had been saved, just as I wish you could have saved that poor old Mercedes. If I had been a rich business man in the 1970s I would have bought and preserved both. Of course machines can’t be held responsible for what they were used for. That very idea is beyond ridiculous, but we’re not talking about the actual U.S.S. Boise/Nueve de Julio. She would have made a beautiful and historically fascinating memorial, but she’s gone now. What we have here is a media company using a representation of her as she was during this horrible time in her history to make money in their arcade naval combat game. She’s being presented as just any other naval vessel, with her connection to these heinous events ignored completely, and her image is being used to make a profit. This is not a car bought for personal use/enjoyment and it’s not the real U.S.S. Boise preserved as a memorial. The situation is entirely different.
Well, I think the comparison holds. And you got my point. I detach machines (or pixels) from the history people attach to it. That was the point I was trying to make. I did not want to compare Mercedes’ position vis a vis the Nazi Regime in 1940 to Wargaming vis a vis the Argentinian Junta. That comparison is apples and oranges. When Mercedes built the car it was history in the making, when Wargaming “built” the Nueve it’s history was known. But still, it is a bit of a leap to create a taboo on a thing that served the wrong people. Then skip the entire German and Japanese lines please.
The comparison doesn’t hold because the context is completely different. U.S.S. Boise wasn’t built to sell anything, she was built to fight. She was a tool designed to accomplish a series of tasks and she fell into the wrong hands. The Nueve de Julio model in WoWs is made specifically to make money by evoking the history of the original ship. Instead of presenting that history fully and treating it with the solemnity and reflection it deserves, WG just lazily picked a name out of a hat so they could sell some premium ships to people from South America. They’re making a cash grab while being willfully ignorant of the greater implications of the history they’re representing in the game.
Since you bring up the German and Japanese lines, why is it that the Germans don’t fly the Kriegsmarine ensign in game? Where are the massive swastikas on their foredecks? Why aren’t there Japanese hell-ship models serving as transports in co-op? If shoving an arcade representation of a ship with a well documented and nefarious past into the game and charging money for it is no big deal, where are the swastikas and the Marus packed with dying POWs? Where’s the “Concentration Camp” map in WoT?
If you had bought that Mercedes, you would have been preserving a piece of history. If Boise were still around, we could tour her actual compartments, see with our own eyes where her story took place, horrors and all. She would be a profound reminder of the greatest heights and lowest lows of humanity, a living honor to her dead. Throwing a few cartoon pixels at a screen for some cheap amusement to make a quick buck preserves nothing and honors nothing. It’s not about “taboo”, it’s about propriety and respect.
EDIT : Another point, I don’t actually agree that you can divorce an object or place or machine from its history. If you could, what would be the point of preserving anything? Why bother to save an old ship or tank or fighter?
Here’s an example : When U.S.S. Hornet was first offered to a museum for preservation, the Navy offered her sister, U.S.S. Oriskany, in her place. Oriskany was nearly identical to Hornet and in better shape because she was built 7 years after Hornet and had left service more recently. If we look at the choice faced by the museum in those terms alone, the answer is clear : take Oriskany. The problem is, Oriskany wasn’t at Leyte Gulf, or Iwo Jima, or Okinawa; Hornet was. She didn’t recover the first manned mission to the moon, or the second; Hornet did. Even though she would have required less money and work, she was less valuable because she didn’t have the story that U.S.S. Hornet had.
It is my opinion that they should rename the Nueve de Julio to the General Belgrano. It would be ko different than Arizona, Hood, Bismarck, Scharnhorst, Yamato, or the myriad of other “hero” ships already in the game.
The problem with this is that the Nueve IS the Boise; they are the same ship. And that was the problem overall. The Boise had a good record, and deserved to be in. As the Nueve, she served honourably as peacetime ships go, but then was the location for terrible things when her service was over.
100% agree. Comparing event during WARTIME and dirty war/political incidents is 2 very very different things. Some of the comparisons I saw in the Discord was just ridiculous and far fetched…
I don’t want to call out anyone in particular, but I definitely did not understand the “it’s only a game” argument coming from some directions, I don’t see why that should count as a free pass for anything.
Jedi, this is really no different than the time WG added a map into WoT that was a Russian gulag. It’s now out of the game but I’m sure you remember the map I’m talking about. Russians are very pragmatic about everything, I’m sure they don’t really see any type of issue here.
So why are you okay with the Boise? Same ship, same involvement, same history, just a different name. For me, what history matters on a historical ship is its history during commission. It’s about what did the ship do, what did it achieve in its career. And I do not believe her career should be diminished or ignored because of things that happened on her decks long after her decommissioning. As a Canadian, let me give a Canadian Example. It’s not well known throughout the world, but during the period of time Canada had declared war on Japan alongside the US, we created internment camps where over 22,000 Canadian Japanese were unrightfully imprisoned for the duration of the war, and even having extreme cases of deportation to japan, even to individuals who were born in Canada. Should I forever label the land that these interment camps were built upon as being tainted from their history, and resist any business or people who reside on these lands today?
Shipmaster Crook as the Nueve it has no real history. The history dates from before it was sold to Argentina. The notable part of its Argentine career is as a site where crimes against humanity were perpetrated. WG want to start a new line which is good but there were other naming options they could have used.
So? The ship was no longer a commissioned ship in the navy. That makes its history in the dirty war no farther or closer related to when the ship was in USN service as “USS Boise.” Lets take an alternate history route, just a slight modification to history. Lets say the ship when it was decommissioned from the Argentinian navy the ship lost its name. And in turn received some sort of decommissioning name such as “Vessel 287”, and in the history books of the dirty war, the ship was always referred to as “Vessel 287” as it lost the name Nueve De Julio years beforehand. Suddenly, would you still associate Nueve De Julio to the Dirty War? I think not, because people seem to give importance to the name of a floating piece of metal rather then its full history.
Shipmaster Crook your “what if” is immaterial as it still carried the name when used for rape and torture. 30000 people went missing, some via this ship, killed and disposed of by people now serving time for crimes against humanity.
Jedi. You obviously feel strongly about this. Having spent a bit of time in Buenos Aires I can tell you they do too. This coming from a Yankee. I just do not think WG gives a Rat’s Ass. Not their dirty war. Sigh. Namaste Danny
Jedi, let’s stop mincing words – this ship was used as a concentration camp and extermination center. Period. “Hypocritical” is the term that comes to mind, when WG refuses to display the swastika or rising sun flag on German and IJN ships in the game, because of the offense that would be caused by these symbols, but has no problem whatsoever including a ship that has a history as dark as this one. Perhaps you should turn the discussion with WG on it’s head – put it to them that if they don’t have any problem selling this ship, with it’s history, for money, then they shouldn’t have a problem with selling Swastika and Rising Sun flags in game for money, for those players that want to make their German and IJN ships “historically accurate”. Because from where I sit, that looks to be the deciding factor between these two instances – money.
The problem with the Swastika is that it’s not permitted to be displayed in Germany.
I don’t see additions of ships as an ethical issue, which is why I fully support the addition of the Nuevo, more ships for us to play with! And yes, even as a Jew (pulled the Jew card here ;)), I wouldn’t mind the addition of the Scharnhorst in your alternate timeline – it was part of the war, its a fun addition to the game, that’s all that count in my humble opinion.
would you blame the ship for its past ? or blame the handlers ? , if the latter then your it’s perfectly fine , if the former , then we should ban all ships , a state of war does not justify the loss of life according to your saying
Ultimately, while I see your point, were ANY of the South American republics any better? Pinochet, anyone? The Nueve may have had the dirty work done aboard her, but does the Belgrano not also suffer a moral stain from having served under the same authority?
If the Nueve had a soul and a voice, I’m sure it would be revolted by the things that were done aboard it, _and over which it had no control_.
The General Belgrano had the misfortune of being sunk in a war, with considerable loss of life, which raises the spectre of that misplaced invasion and all the hard feelings about it. But since Belgrano was a commissioned ship in a navy that supported the Junta. by your logic, every solider in the Argentine army of the late 70ies and 80ies would be culpable ?
Pinochet ” you are saying commies can’t fly?” ” who new?”
So did the ship torture and kill people, or did other people, representing the Argentinian government, do so? Should the Boise also be taken out of the game (same ship involved)? Otherwise, the history of the ship is even more revealed given WG putting it in the game, and players can vote with their wallet very easily.
Yea thats my point too. Vhat did the ship do? NOTHING. Its a thing. Vhat the ppl aboard did, has nothing to do vith the ship.
i get the history but i don’t blame the ship i blame the evil people who did it. a small part of her history doesn’t blot all the rest.
that said both ships are very meh. you can do lots of damage but you can’t carry in it. it has too many stats that are worse than the lower tier Dallas.
I’m glad they didnt change it, and cater to snowflakes who are trigered by history. I think they did the best thing posible, and ofered BOTH her and Boise for sale. To cater to evryone. I picked the Julio over the Boise, just to make a point. Ignoring history and pretending it dont exist, is stupid.
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