World of warships – Degradation of gameplay

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  1. Flambass do you think Thor’s new weapon will be StormBreaker?

  2. I’ve been playing since the closed beta, I just came back from a year-long break. It really isn’t as much fun as it was back in the days.

  3. Salty Flambass 🙂 Remember half the people is below average, and average isn’t good either…

    • Tommy Andreassen wow that’s one way to look at it

    • don’t think it works that way with averages. for example if we would make the numbers 1000/1000/2000/8000 then the average would be 3000. yet 75% of these numbers falls beneath the average. extremely good and extremely bad players influence the average more than players who fall close to that average. therefore it is likely that either more or less than 50% of the players are worse than what we would call the “average” level of skill. depending on whether there are more horrible players or great players.

    • aBananaBread yes, but that is for low sample sizes. Looking at the thousands the data will form a bell curve, which can be left or right skewed. But then we usually look at medians, not the mean. (My uni uses this grading method, so yeah)

    • that is correct however my point being that the odds of the average being a division of exactly 50/50 is quite rare. usually in bigger groups it will be towards but not exactly 50/50. I know, i’m nitpicking over the probable 1 or 2% difference

    • “Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so.”
      -Bertrand Russell

      There should be thinking ability test required for getting permission to buy food from (super)market.
      Because Homo Sapiens is getting replaced by Homo Consumericus Stupidus.

  4. The problem is these same idiot’s that don’t shoot the DDs etc then piss, whine and moan that its the MMs fault they always lose, or the game is rigged against them or that people are cheating to kill them.

    I had a CV that reported me for ” cheating ” because i citadelled him twice in my Lyon from 9km. Those are the kinds players we have now.

  5. Easy way to fix BBs is to make it so when they shoot beyond 15-16km their accuracy(sigma AND dispersion) is reduced by 5% per kilometer. Then you can’t sit in the back and the ranges can be adjusted per ship.

    • Yeah nobody would hit anything

    • That dickhead in his Henri will have a field day, though.

      (I’m that dickhead)

    • Wouldn’t work.
      For example there’s one ~200 match in Fuso failbo(a)t with awesome 7,6k average damage and 7% hit rate.
      Pretty much same for 500+ matches of Kongo variants and 11,8k over 55 Nagato matches
      What this game needs is those submarines…
      As bots patrolling map borders and attacking all those full HP BBs going there.
      And getting sinked by those should give special Deserter achievement, status which in next couple matches should force player to pay part of repair bills of rest of the team.
      And few of those achievements would cause need to buy ship again and captain/commander would be court-martialed for desertion.

      (that failbot also has between 3-7k average in T4-7 USN DDs and 9k in T7 Kiev)

    • Ah, just give all BB German BB dispersion and this will fix it. Then hitting something is up to RNG.

    • This is what I’m saying the accuracy of BB’s at max range stays the same. It should go way down. You should have an optimal range envelope with falloff of accuracy. Ones with a closer in optimal should get an increase in HP/better DC so they can hang in there. It’s a game but hitting a moving target with battleship guns over the horizon is extremely hard in real life.

  6. I understand (and agree) with your rant about camping BBs … but you do realize none of the BBs you torped this game was camping at the back, right ?
    What impact do you expect the asashio will have on BBs ?
    they’ll just think like those BBs you murdered : if I go forward, I’ll be wrecked by a thing nobody have ever seen (the ennemy CV was utterly garbage not spotting the middle by the way), so I’ll camp at the back, behind the rest of my team, and wait to see. And we already stated cruisers are an horrible class to push (because they get heavily punished for being detected) so, what to be expected except a camping fiesta ?

    Gameplay nowadays going horribly wrong; I agree with you, but introducing those sort of stupid DDs are going to make it even worse.

    • Tbh, the reason those BBs took 90k damage total isn’t simply because asashio is OP OR Flambass’ skill… None of them throttled their speed or zigzagged… The sad thing in this story is that these kinds of bad players are why decent ships get nerfed and/or the wrong things get buffed.

      They see a “simple” ship like Asashio and cry for nerfs. They see a complicated ship (like the US light cruisers) and cry for buffs rather than learning to play them. Same thing happened to German cruisers… HE pen got buffed, whereas the real buff would’ve been having Hydro+DefAA, but they kept crying the thing does low damage, whereas WG can’t realistically buff the DPM without making it OP as fuck.. Iowa and Montana getting lowered citadels is another great example, even though it was kind of warranted in Iowa’s case.

      If you’re looking for stupid nerfs, I only need to point at Jap DDs, Khabarovsk, Conqueror…

      To specify:
      Monqueror IS OP, but its survivability wasn’t the problem, it just needed the 419s removed.
      Khabarovsk was fine, until BBabies came crying about how they couldn’t hit it, so WG nerfed maneuverability, but buffed the HE damage… THEY STILL CAN’T HIT IT. To that end, I can’t believe the Henri didn’t get hit with the nerfbat yet.

    • +DaKiller
      I agree with you on one level, but the fact remains a game needs in part to be balanced around the reality of the player base.
      WG does next to nothing to encourage QUALITY play, it’s all about wanting people to grind and pay for premiums. Which is why it’s ridiculously easy to climb tiers, as WG knows where the $$ are to be made (it’s not tiers 5-6). That easy advancement has a direct effect on quality of play.
      Regardless, the performance numbers don’t lie, and things like Khaba outperformed cruisers. The real OP jokes in fact were CVs in the early days; they outperformed EVERYTHING else (topped av dam and exp per battle in every tier, and often beat other classes a tier or more above). So WG has to deal with that.
      You’ll also encounter bot/afk players, although I found it FAR less of a problem than WoT used to be (where it was absolutely rife for many years). I played WoT from beta in 2010 then WoWS Alpha through release before quitting all of them (I stopped WoT in around 2013 more or less).
      Cheers

    • “the performance numbers don’t lie” Just because it does a lot of damage, doesn’t make it “the best”. Because, if we followed that logic, Hindenburg and Henri would be better than DM. I don’t think Henri or Hindenburg needs a nerf, much less DM needing a buff. Also, YueYang scores higher than Kebab, apparently. Also, yes the numbers do lie. If you look at the most popular stats sites, you’ll see more Shima OR Gearing battles than the other 4 DDs combined. Meaning the stats are skewed. Personally, my 75% winrate in Gearing suggests it’s a lot easier to carry in a Gearing then a Kebab.

      There’s “powerful” and there’s useful. To the average potato, what’s “powerful” is far better than what’s “useful”. I’d trade 10 Khabarovsks for 1 half decent Shimakaze.

      Everything else you said is on point, though… My vast experience in WT Arcade prior to WoWS tells me some players just never learn (like idiots with 10k battles in a singular plane and still being stuck at 20% winrate)

    • Was on the way to the store just now, when a though hit me.
      “WG does next to nothing to encourage QUALITY play” This is somewhat true, but I don’t think it’s as relevant as people think it is.I believe WG doesn’t do enough to punish BAD play. And even if it does, the game doesn’t/can’t tell you what went wrong.

      Examples of bad play being punished and it being obvious:
      -Cruiser sailing broadside to a BB gets citadel’d.
      -DD getting too close to a cruiser getting wrecked.

      Examples of bad play getting punished and it being not so obvious:
      -BBs getting torped by sailing in a straight line.
      -BBs getting AP’d by a cruiser.
      -DDs getting wrecked by BB AP because they angled.
      -Cruisers getting citadel’d through the bow.

      Examples of bad play not getting punished sufficiently:
      -BBs sailing broadside to other BBs.
      -General underperforming.

      1st of all, citadels are stupid. It’s funny dishing them out, but it’s sucks being on the receiving end AND in the case of actually being angled, the game doesn’t tell you WHY you were citadel’d. What’s more annoying is that some BB’s citadel is virtually untouchable. Same with DDs getting wrecked by BB AP.
      2nd In the case of “general under-performing”, it used to be that you needed some minimum score to not lose credits, even with premium camo, at tier X… No more, though. The game doesn’t tell you to get better, instead it just gives your ship back after the appropriate amount of time. This is why there are so many potatoes at tier X. They have no reason to “get better”, but also not to stop sucking.

    • +DaKiller
      I think after 7.5 years of writing about WG stuff, I’ve fallen victim to abbreviating, lol.
      I would include all that you’ve said in “not encouraging good play”, but it’s a bit six of one half a dozen the other.
      Poor explanation of mechanics, rudimentary communications, ability to pay your way out of being crap etc etc are all things I would include (the cynic in me suggests WG wants players to be crap as they’ll be more likely to spend money, even if they subsequently dump the game).

  7. the meta has changed over the last year and I cant put my finger on why.. but yeah camping and just not playing the adjectives …. running away leaving the DD to fight all the things . and my big hate, leaving a whole flank open and them complaining that we are loosing ….. sigh ….
    Thank You for the Rant Flambass .. you took the words out of my mouth 🙂

  8. game quality has dropped a lot, when i check profiles of players i play with and against after a battle there are barely any players breaking the 40% mark in thousands of games and they are playing higher tier, failed their way up big time. it is really rare to have good games at all these times, esp. when you play ships that cannot carry very well….player behaviour is so erratic, you can’t plan your game, because ships sail where they are not supposed to be etc….and lemming trains. don’t get me started on them. Lemming team and then camping instead of pushing, baahhhh

  9. Dimitris Doulianakis

    The thing i’m noticing more and more are too many flanking DDs that don’t spot anything and suddenly they are at the back of enemy lines still not doing anything else other than chasing down running CVs. Last battle in my Missouri i solo caped twice even thought there were 2 DDs still alive in my team…. Go figure…

  10. WoWs is not primarily a game, its a business with the facade of a game. No real game would allow a player who does not either learn or improve to progress. The object of this game is to progress, and progression means spending money for most. I’ve twice uninstalled (CBT player) due to terrible game play, and recently returned to witness even worse game play. The below average player does not care if they win or lose, if they survive, then no repair bill, and more credits. You see them with no flags, no cammo, and no clue. The new horde from Steam is the worst. These players have been brought up on mobile games, and are probably children, or have the IQ of a child.

    • Well, you pay regardless if you had any damage or been sunk. Same amount. That is why I can’t understand retarded hidding and waiting out from players.

    • ^^^THIS^^^ Please, will somebody, seriously ANYBODY, make us a game just like WOWS that is NOT such greedy bullshit! Wargaming needs the competition, its so very long overdue. And it should be a profitable venture too.
      We aren’t talking about a hugely complicated game here, just some basic maps and some basic game mechanics. Charge $5 bucks/month to play, or $100 bucks up front, IDK so long as it’s NOT pay to win. I doubt I’m the only one who feels this way. I know the talent to make this game is out there, so whats it gonna take to make this happen?

    • I’d gladly pay a monthly subscription (something has to pay for servers) for a game where tards and kids where confined to the play room.

  11. Completely agree! So sick and tired of idiot camping BBs.

  12. As a community contributor do you feel bad showing off how powerfully broken this ship is knowing how bad for gameplay it is? Why do you keep promoting it? You know every man and his dog is gonna buy this… Is pleasing wargaming more important than making the community better?

    • i was curious to see the Flambass reply to this question, seems not going happen…

    • TBH, the best way for WG to notice what’s wrong with this ship is to promote this ship alot though. More win -> more camper -> more pissed player -> more complain, decrease playerbase-> fix.

    • “how bad for gameplay it is”

      Only if you sail full speed in predictable lines a lot. You’ll notice the BBs at the start didn’t zigzag OR change speed at all. I could probably hit them with Benson torps. I’ve been playing this game since the Russian cruisers were added and have seen countless instances of “this will make the camping worse”, except the camping is still exactly the same, apart from there consistently being 5 BBs per team per match now.

    • Just wait until you have 3 per side.

    • However, Benson does not have the torp reload, and Benson torps are more visable -> hence easier to dodge.
      Asashio Torps can’t be dodged at all after you spot them. And since they have stupid range, you can sort of fire and forget.
      I mean, you can fire torps sitting in B on this map and pretty much put up a torp carpet from A (or at least from the island in front of A) all the way to the Spawn (because of Torp reload – you have 5 torps more than the Shima, with better concealment on the torps, that hit similar hard AND you are a Tier 8 DD), so even if you slow down, Asashio can put up so many torps at the same time that are very stealthy and hit incredibly hard… Some IJN DDs at least have to give up smoke to have torp reload, this ship doesn’t. Basically it has no big downside, or so it seems.

      In my opinion there are only two things that can reliably counter this ship:
      DDs that screen/spot torps (because they will have a very hard time spotting the Asashio itself because of the camo), or a CV that spots the DD. Because since they reduce the torp spotting range for aircraft, those torps will be a pain to spot with aircraft as well.

  13. For some reason it is always one team that plays like absolute garbage. And other team decent. Before few players per team tried to carrie. And we had mostly even fight that where decided half way in.
    Now most games are decided from the start.

    • Dominic Robertson

      It’s a worrying pattern, one team seems to win by a large margin nearly every game

    • Dominic Robertson yes it is. The equal fight happen less and less. Games where u end up 3v4 still fighting for the win. And worst part is that when a good player is on the bad/losing/worse team the skill gap is so high that one or 2 can’t change the outcome.

    • Dominic Robertson

      exactly

  14. Meme Merchant Freddy

    Guys, could it just be as simple as the very experienced players are moving onto other games? Is WOWS the hyped game it used to be? I think it’s maturing and you may have a fair bit of drop off of the true vets. Noobs like me who have watched games for ages but not played are picking it up and trying our hand and thusly – pushing without knowing how or when, bad smokes etc. You’re seeing new blood replace old. I wouldn’t see that as a bad thing overall – at least the heart is still beating.

  15. I would be pretty fucking happy if matchmaking would stop matching 40% winrate teams vs 55-60% win rate teams all the time i just love seeing my whole side of the MM monitor red as blood while the enemy team looks like a lavender bush

  16. Like I’m so tired of players complaining at me for pushing in a BB that’s what you are supposed to do… Then when the game finishes with me top of the team on kills and xp dealing 150k damage I am called a noob after battle like Wtf. Same as DD I had a player who had 100 games call me a noob for playing my DD wrong because I didn’t die in the first 5 minutes and carried the game as he said ‘DD is supposed to die straight away you fucking idiot’ like Wtf I try to play like Flambass does I try to atleast and ever since i did that my scores and stats went up by so much so thank you flambass. I am still trash compared to you like just wow the way you play is insane

  17. Is one of the things I’ve stated many times: tier progression should be unlocked through personal performance statistics such as players who play as imbeciles never get past a certain tier threshold and can’t ruin high level tier play.

    I’m not saying you need to be an unicum to play T10. But at least make sure that noone with a WTR under 500 gets past tier 5, and that noone with a WTR under 800 gets past Tier 8. Just add those checks and you’ll end up with high tier players that might be better or worse, but at least understand what they need to do and they’re assets for their teammates.

    Add to that, the game doesn’t reward objectivelly good teamplay. Yes, caps give good xp/silver, but you don’t get rewarded for being the dude outside the cap doing work as a DPM cruiser, a tanking BB, or a radaring dude. I don’t get XP for using smoke to lay a team-covering smoke cloud in a destroyer to save someone else’s life when he’s being focused. I don’t get XP for kiting 4-5 dudes alone in a flank, keeping it from crumbling down while trying to tank them as long as possible…etc etc etc.

    Meanwhile damage translates into Xp in a pretty straighforward way. So people just sit, and fire, and don’t accomplish shit, but who cares because they’ll eventually get their T10s anyway, and “they’re playing only for fun” (for the fun of losing 70% of the time like total retards. Much fun. So wow)

    Silver lining is that 3/4 of the playerbase of WoWS (and WOT, WT, name the free-to-play game, it’s always the same) are horrible players by choice. Nothing really moves them to learn how to play (because it seems to be very tiresome for them lazy asses), and they get to advance through the tiers anyway so the game doesn’t even penalize them too much for sucking harder than a vacuum cleaner.

    and of course WG won’t do anything to change that, because the second they do, the second they’ll be shooing away 75% of their playerbase. Woe betide the developer who actually tries to enforce learning curves and actually skill-based rewards in a multiplayer game like this!!!!!!!

    • Many of the more accomplished players simply get tired of the BS and graduate to sims. The level of capability to actually fly an aircraft or operate some other piece of complex machinery properly is often beyond the juveniles’ abilities, effectively screening them out of the games.

      I can’t even think of a single time that someone like Magz have mentioned obnoxious brats ruining the game with their very presence. Now if I can just get Rise of Flight to load on my @#$%! machine….

  18. Might be also i NOTICED on days im off work the gameplay quality and level is below acceptable. That said, think about it Flambass, don’t you guys notice it? At evenings more experienced guys come in to Play, because mature ones got lifes to live, playing around 12 noon is like playing with kids that sittning skipping school and shit :p

    • Possibly. I remember when I played StarCraft back in the day. Eventually stopped playing because I realized the main demographic was 10-12 year olds…some of them were good enough to kick my ass…but mostly I got tired of the juvenile inability to commit to a match.

      I definitely see a difference in competence of play based on time of the week.

    • that, + weekends. But also DEVs nowadays makes this game and ships and mechanics way too easy for beginners and low age kids to be decent enough to go out sit with full broadside on 1 side of the map and let the experienced guys push opposite flank and delete them with free citadels…

      Also other games I noticed this in over the years is Arma, Project reality, CSGO and LoL/Dota

    • Has def been noticed by me at least. I’m retired so I can and do play the game at any and all hours, literally. You can tell when the kids on your server have had supper and settled down to play.
      The comments are typically pugnacious and insulting as juveniles are wont to be. That’s typically when the TKs show up as well, most of whom are by “accident” (someone ran into my torps) and occasionally by genuine TKs.
      After about 10, sometimes 11, more mature players are up and the level of gameplay goes up and the dumbass comments and toxic bullshit disapears. At 3 in the morning it’s strictly adults and the gaming is not bad, considering we’re mostly insomniacs.

  19. Well – I no longer play the game and I was a decent BB captain.
    I used my BBs to push and to tank for the team.
    Prioritising the most dangerous targets, help my DDs (kill radar cruisers, shoot enemy DDs)
    I was comunicating!
    – pinging the map
    – writing warnings
    I also was reacting to invisible threats (DDs on minimap, caps being flipped etc)
    I left this game for good a while ago due to my playstyle being punished and not the camper BBs that I also don´t like!

    I love watching me some WoWs vids, but playing the game myself? naaaah
    Also I was often insulted in chat by idiots and mostly the ones that died first …

  20. The game makes it way too easy to just have fun farming damage, and doesn’t focus on rewarding team play. You basically have to personally enjoy working with a random team of strangers or place more personal value on “Wins” than other stats. If you are having more fun or perceive more rewards for damage farming, why would you give that up to do something that benefits random internet strangers instead?

    More to the point, Flambass divisions and fought CB all the time. Clearly he (1) values team wins enough to work with others, or (2) prefers to play with others enough that he’s embraced teamwork and team wins in order to do so. Or both. Problem is a lot of players don’t. They enjoy playing with ships enough that they tolerate dealing with internet strangers. If you think about the game from that perspective, it becomes obvious why a lot of players don’t cooperate. They don’t need to, or worse, they don’t want to…it’s not why they are playing this game.

    Full disclosure: I used to be a “I enjoy ships enough to tolerate other people” player. It took time for me to appreciate the fun of successful teamwork and team wins. But until team play became fun for me, there’s just no good argument for why I should play the game differently, i.e. less fun.

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