Discussing proposed Destroyer armor change by Wargaming to combat the AP penetration of Battleships. Share your thoughts and hope you have a wonderful day!
Tier X Soviet Destroyer Grozovoi Replay
https://discord.gg/33xzEjR – Discord Server
One word DETONATION
Always fun when you take your Iowa out and get detanated in the 1st 5 minutes before you even get to do anything and expensive at that
@Benny So your solution is that in order to combat this nonsense/idiotic feature is to be forced to pay for a flag package (which contains a bunch of common flags you really dont need to buy because of their drop rate) due to the actual flag against detonations is a uncommon drop…
Rob Allison it’s really not a idiotic feature I see it happen only about 3 times a month at most
@Alpha Its not like its happening “all the time” for me either but everytime it happens its like someone just pulled a rug underneath you. Its so random and totally demolish any fun to be had afterwards. Dont really see the use for such a random kill feature in a game, any game for that matter.
If its meant to be realistic then why not add all the other features people ask for all the time thats realistic. Just as a reference I like playing chess from time to time. If someone added a function to the timer clock that every 30th match all of a sudden it would stop in the middle of a game and announced a random winner, would that add to the chess game or be detrimental? WoWs share some elements of the tactical aspect with chess hence why I compare them.
Rob Allison true
But surely in real life it would only take one shell to wipe a destroyer
wun1gee Just because Yamato ate 11 or 13 Torped hits it doesn‘t mean that all were required.
Simply imagine that you are firing at a human with a machinegun, fully automatic, and then you count the bullet hits until his body hits the floor. Realistically it only took one, maybe two, well placed shots to kill him. The rest speeded things up or were simply overkill.
Also, Yamato‘s magazine detonated after she basically rolled over from the flooding. I quote a written source: “The Commanding Officer gave an order to prepare to abandon ship. The list was increasing at an alarming rate. Soon after the order she began to sink with a list of 90°. When she reached 120° a gigantic explosion of the stern ammunition magazines and a smaller explosion tore the ship up […].”
Yamato would‘ve sank there, with or without the magazine explosion.
in real life you had waves, wind, radar and hydro not going through islands and eventually no bbs because they were so pinpoint accurate and so highly economical xD
charliedontsurf334 foolish in a dd means stupid enough to play the objective. instead of hanging around in the back like the bbs and harvesting damage and calling it skill. I will give you this though with the HE spamming bbs wargaming brought that shit onto themselves. it is no valid option anymore to go in with your dds as a bb when facing all those brit and frech he spammers and additional he spamming light cruisers
The Earth’s surface curves out of sight at a distance of 3.1 miles, or 5 kilometers, so I’d say it kinda make sense? didn’t most ships detect other ships because of their smoke, not the actual ship? just askin
I’m so confused. All this time I thought that “in real life”, this is just a video game.
BUT SINCE I”M HERE!!!!!…….
In REAL LIFE planes put an end to battleships as played in the game! I HATE CARRIERS!
Okay, Peace love and Flowers y’all….hehe! PEACE OUT! 😉
Scharnhorst doens’t care about this.
Because he is a swiss army knife of WoWs
Yes look at my shiny horse she is amazing :3
Empoleonman522the2 She is a good lil’ troublemaker for everyone. (Not so little i know)
Yes I know I’m a f•• ing noob and cant play jada jada, but IF we sometime would stop and think what this HE no skill needed game was ment to be a light simulator of ship battles. I sink 2 out of 3 BB’s with my DD’s by rushing them… if the BB now wont do shit dammage with AP to me this number will increase to 90%. Why because if im detected on 6 km they have max1 salvo from mainguns to sink me before im on a range were my 8-10 torps cant miss and they die. We all know that 95% of all BBs secondary guns are shit so they aint of no danger for me in this short rush…. so again if we think about the idea of this game were in the f**ing world did we hear about DD’s rushing BB’s in ww2 and had no problems to sink them??? So all changes that makes it harder for a BB to sink a lone DD that attacks is a no no from me and that players like Notser thinks this is a good idea is just mindblowing. So now you all experts can go back again to tell me, u cant play, this aint a simulator, noob and jada jada and dont forget to load HE in your tier 8 BB because that how this game should be played. No skill, no brain just HE spamming
Both the Johnston and the Roberts were sank by battleships in the same engagement. Both by 14″ gunfire from Kongo. Roberts was hit by 3 14″ shells from Kongo in a single salvo..
Don’t give me that “no DD was sank by a battleship” shit.
If you angle wrong and that AP shell sticks in your ship, you should be punished. Suicide runs should be just that, not a free gimme put in for whiners.
Hey guys, battleships are constantly chastised for not being aggressive and pushing. When we do that, destroyers do bum rushes. When we stay in the middle ground, we’re regarded as stupid slow BBs that camp the back. BBs take enough flak and it’s frustrating when we have to play like destroyers because they like camping the back too apparently. Instead of nerf battleship AP, wouldn’t it be a good idea to just discourage DDs from doing these stupid rushes in the first place? If a destroyer comes within 6km (as they often do) they deserve to get deleted by BBs. If they’re way outside that range, the dispersion of BB guns ensures that hits are rare and regular pens are even rarer because of the Armour as of now.
Just to clarify, I’m fine if a DD ambushes behind an island because that would be totally the fault of the BB, but when you get killed by a DD in open waters and you just can’t do anything about it, it’s kind of infuriating.
“Been a captain on a sub for 12 years and after that a teacher for new crews another 20 years”. I call utter, utter bullshit on that. You write like an angry teenager, not a professional of 30 years experience.
Game imbalance? DDs with their wall of skill is OP as hell. Also before anyone says just dodge them you can not dodge them all sooner or later you will get bit and eat a ton or torps from an invisible DD
You speak of walls of skill, how about that magical control right click button skill Battleships have?
07jaworski07 Black *cough* Missouri *cough* german hydro bbs *cough* belfast *coughing fit*
Revan460 Situational awareness with invisible targets xD
Totally agree. I hate both.
yea the retard have awareness with imaginary friend :))))))))))))
wait… you want to nerf BBs against DDs? As if BBs weren’t skittish enough dealing with them. DDs are the ones hunting BBs, not the other way around. I’m more interested in what this means for DD vs DD or DD vs CA though.
Kaleiohu Lee so what are you trying to say, its not fare when i hit a Montana lastnight in my shimakaze and nuked him from full health with a spread of 15 torps? If was his fault cuz he came full speed around an island and got hit with 6 toprs then he was dead, but i really hit him with 14 out of my 15. He did say nice torps to me in chat.
Crumbology Considering the fact that the AP of the German DD’s is useless against other DD’s until T8, presumably because of how thin their armor is until then, I think it’s logical to assume that it will go back to that if the armor goes back to the thickness of T6’s.
And if the armor thickness isn’t a factor, and the width of the ship is all that matters, then doesn’t it make the whole change pointless? How is it supposed to effect the battleship’s penetration?
DDs will get obliterated by 203mm AP shells. As if they need anymore incentive to stay away from cruisers. All cruisers are capable of dealing with DDs. This “fix” doesn’t do anything except nerf DDs where they don’t even need a nerf. This is just the absolute wrong way to go.
Ha, i always priority shot DD regardless what ship type im using. It is the squishiest ship in the game and her death is more important than any other type except CV.
what’s gonna stop dds from just yoloing bbs
Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
BBs will have to kite away like they used to. I quit the game 2 years ago and recently came back, one of the first things i noticed was DDs could no longer even try to rush BBs anymore. It used to be a fairly bad idea for a DD since it would pretty much wreck you if you tried, but you would often get your torps off at least, but now one click with AP and the DD is deleted. In the old days BBs had to actively move away from potential DD ambushes, and generally speaking hanging around near islands in a BB was a pretty bad idea. Letting DDs rush BBs more easily now might fix the island camping too.
Cruisers are too busy hiding behind islands. Why does WG continue to push a meta of island hiding and HE spam? It’s almost like they’ve never played the game before.
also dont forget spotter/fighter planes with 1pt cpt skill for 2 in the air will deter dd’s getting too close aswell as spot torps, WSAD hacks and div up with friends is the best way BB DD and CA/CL div and no DD wil risk a yolo attack. even 2 BB and your going to be safe with constant air cover and both hitting a dd will melt them.
just remember no ship can push on its own you need 2 of the three classes ( not counting CV’s as there are so few of them) only time DD’s are a major threat to bb’s is in the 2ed half of the game when the fleets are thined out and they can get in close and flank. first 10 min and youll take one or two at a time max.
smart BB players do not fear torps sent from 8km
Sorry but when your ship is hit with a 16 inch shell it will and should do amazing amounts of damage
Sorry but when a BB is hit with a torp or set on fire there should be no magic heal or damage control to stop flooding or a fire, it will and should do amazing damage. And history shows that large shells went through DD’s and light carriers doing a lot less damage than if it had exploded in them, read up on the battle of Leyte Gulf.
“Soon after being torpedoed, Atlanta was then hit by an estimated nineteen 8-inch (203 mm) shells when San Francisco, “in the urgency of battle, darkness, and confused intermingling of friend or foe”, fired into her. Though almost all of the shells passed through the thin skin of the ship without detonating, scattering green dye, fragments from their impact killed many men, including Admiral Scott and members of his staff. ” (WIkipedia; USS Atlanta entry)
You ever heard of overpenetration?
How exactly do you know I’m not? Or are you just ASSuming? I’ve made comments in many threads on the forum as well as in many of these Youtube videos and I’ve called out every class and the whiners that play them that feel they deserve something extra special. Kind of like I’m calling you out now actually.
Ashashio was what BB’s wanted? Oh wait, it was deep water torps, that’s what BB’s wanted, my mistake. Or maybe you’re just wrong (again) and are talking out of your posterior…….stealth fire wasn’t removed or changed because of BB’s, that change was a result of CRUISERS, one in particular actually. And don’t look now sparky, but BB’s are FAR from the only class with Radar. The only thing you can honestly “go on and on” about is your whining, and you’re doing a FANTASTIC job of that.
Keep in mind that the (proposed) 13mm armour means that CAs can overmatch most DDs with AP (Khaba belt still immune).
This is theorycrafting, but have some maths:
A single Iowa shell does 4500HP damage on a pen. A single DM shell does 1667 damage on a pen. A single Hindy shell does 2000HP damage on a pen A single Zao shell does 1800HP damage on a pen.
To one-shoot an [SE] Gearing, an Iowa needs 5 pens and change. A DM needs 14 pens. A Hindy needs 11 pens. A Zao needs 13 pens.
As a general rule, the first response of any DD that gets caught by a CA is to turn away and flee, thus guaranteeing that any AP hits on them will be pens and not overpens (raking shots, up the aft). CAs can get 2 (or 4-5, in the case of DM) broadsides out for every broadside a BB would get out in the same timeframe, and they are considerably more accurate.
This will not significantly improve DD survivability and *it is not meant to.* It is outright stated on the Dev-post:
“The amount of damage received by destroyers will *remain the same on average,* but the bulk of it will come from cruisers and battleship secondaries”.
All this does is deny BBs the currently-possible devstrikes on DDs with AP. It does *not* mean that DDs will not be blasted out of the sea with the exact same regularity that they’re being now. It’s just going to be the CAs doing the blasting.
To clarify, I am not saying that this is a bad change, or arguing for a reduction of the amount of damage that DDs receive on average. I am just putting up the numbers.
And as a final note: the Akizuki *still* needs IFHE to be able to meaningfully damage BBs and CAs. It’ll just be able to deal with high-tier DDs from the get-go, which should be a *great* help for players grinding up their captain.
This is the most reasonable post so I have a balance question. If we limit it to tier 10, a DD can devstrike/one attack kill a BB and the same for a BB vs DD. A dd can one attack kill a Cruiser but a cruiser (including DM) takes multiple good attacks to kill a DD. As you lower the tiers and the time to reload increases, the number of cruiser attacks increases also. Will this address this issue if the cruiser is supposed to be the DD hunter?
Crumbology Actually, HE shells only do 33% of their max damage on a penetrating hit. The max damage is only applied when scoring HE citadels.
The absolute maximum damage a Myoko can inflict on a DD with a 100% accurate broadside is 1100*10=11000 HP.
Akizuki doesnt do meaningful HE damage to BBs, or CAs really for that matter. It does fire damage to them, and once it gets that fire, it switches to AP. You still can ONLY pen the superstructure of these ships even with IFHE. Unless theres a T10 cruiser with 21mm plating that Im not privy to (maybe the Mino). Your HE salvos are probably not even going to do 1000 damage most of the time. Meanwhile, against broadside targets and BB superstructure, your AP does 2-4k damage a salvo.
Wait they said battleship secondaries? Really they dare to joke about that.
Than they have to change the british BB Ammo too.
Petersen It matches what the Royal Navy did IRL as far as BB are concerned.
No, they had to use AP vs Armored Targets, like other Navies too. The HE was used for Shore shelling or against unamored Targets. The HE-Fire-Thing is more a WG Invention, to make Cruisers more competitive to BBs. Thats fine for the Gameplay, but IRL the Aurora couldnt kill the Mikasa, for instance. Ingame the Aurora will win in 9 of 10 cases.
Petersen Royal Navy did have great HE in reality though. Look at how the Scharnhorst fell.
Petersen funny how the mongquerors 457s have the 2nd best pen of all tier 10 bbs at all ranges but its shit…
e115x525 That ship and the early ships are the exception. They seem pretty good with AP and don’t have to spam HE.
What is the problem with DD AP penetration from BB’s? It is the opposite of wanting to go broadside like what you see in cruisers and battleships? I play battleships and destroyers most of the time, and I just know that it is foolish to go nose or tail in to a battleship, just as you don’t go broadside in other classes. If I take a normal pen for 1/3 of my health, that is MY fault no one else’s. If you’re trying to escape, go broadside when the shells are on the way, and turn away after the splash. I think this is an unnecessary nerf to AP shells to satisfy whiners. Are they going to remove British cruiser citadels next? They are destroyers for all practical purposes.
I think it’s a bad decision. I prefer the realism aspects of the games, rather than game meta changes just for the sake of perceived “game balance”. 9 16″ shells at less that 10KM should delete careless DD’s. As usually… a spread of torps from the same range deletes the careless BB.
You ever played grozovoi m8? You get AP penned whether you angle or not it breaks the gameplay.
You go broadside to avoid BB shells and then you get fucked by other 20 shells coming at you from other DD or Cruisers.People that play DD don’t have problem with avoiding one or two ships at the same time it’s a problem when you need to knife fight,watch out for torpedos and avoid fire from 3 other ships while your BB jerks off behind island and are like:”Nah bro i wont go i can eat a torp n’ shit”.
Ryltar I love just love how all the battleshitter worms try to justify how being able to nuke dd’s is balanced. It’s really not, battleships for that matter are the only class other then carriers to can straight up nearly always delete other classes from 15km out. Destroy torps are easy to dodge if you’re paying attention to positioning.
except single des moines hanging behind some islands nearby caps should not be capable of denying on his own said cap to whole division in enemy team… and if you look up flamu’s vids you’d be aware it is.
issue with radar is that it punishes DDs for tryign to do the right thing, promotes bad DD gameplay and has no real counterplay (“not being in radar range” does not count as counterplay – next time someone complained about being citadeled by a BB you’d also tall that person to simply not be in firing range of that BB?)
additionally there is on many radar ships “alternative” module that is never really used because it’s useless compared to radar – spotter plane. and now imagine if radar had LoS restriction, both could be viable choices with both having counterplays – plane ignores hard cover but can’t see in smoke, radar ignores smoke but get’s blocked by hard cover.
No. No, I’m sorry, this is a bad idea from all angles. DDs have their concealment and walls of skill that are their counter. If you are spotted as a DD, you should expect heavy punishment. If that comes in the form of 16″ homing pigeons, then it should really hurt, I mean REALLY HURT. As I said, DDs already have a counter in torps and it got worse with DW torps which are essentially undodgeable if you’re in a big BB.
not when sonar, radar, and planes exist spotting all those torps. there is 0 reason for your BB to be getting torped if your sticking with your team.
The problem is that the punishment scales out of proportion with the mistake. Getting spotted for a few seconds is really easy, especially in a high tier game full of radar, hydro, and aircraft. It’s even more likely if the DD is doing their job by aggressively spotting and contesting caps. The current design makes it very hard for the DD to avoid making a mistake, and very easy for a BB to harshly punish that mistake. It leads to bad gameplay. DDs playing passively, not spotting, and not taking caps. BBs mindlessly throwing AP at everything instead of intelligently managing their ammo choices. Getting spotted as a DD *should* be punished – but not to the degree that it is currently.
And BBs need to change ammunition time to time. Since other classes has a reason to change ammunition type.
Not really. The game has been shifting more toward a one-universal-ammo-type for a long time now. Which is why you’ve got UK BBs that never need to use anything but HE and the new US light cruiser line that will never have to switch to AP, just IFHE all day every day.
wun1gee That started with IFHE’s introduction. Then British BBs had stupidly strong HE and high fire chance. And got crowned with German cruiser HE pen buff made Hindenburg become the most consistent HE spammer in the game, out damaging Zao and Des Moines. How to get rid of it? Make better AP focused ships. Like, make a German 150mm DD or CL line that can consistently pen their counters(CAs and BBs respectively).
Great now bb’s will be defenseless lol because the cruisers do sweet F all but farm damage
zzirSnipzz1 you mean like…. 90% of bb players sitting at near max range trying to dev strike cruisers?
What if, in exchange, AP overpens that exit below the waterline cause flooding? Because Physics?
Naa comrade. Balance.
No because you would have the potential to set multiple floods in one salvo.
It was like this in early alpha. Along with a buoyancy mechanic.
They removed them both because they said they were too complicated for people to understand.
Game is dumbed down.
I can’t speak for the other nations’ battleships, (Except for the British, because it’s common knowledge that their HE is broken as hell, and maybe the French, because their guns reload extremely fast, and I assume their HE has =/> average damage/fire chance,) I have Missouri but it’s basically a port decoration with how rarely I use it, and I haven’t (and probably never will) grind any other battleship lines, but I think I can say with some confidence that German BB HE is not viable, and this change, while it’s going to decrease the effectiveness of the AP, is never going to change that established fact.
Their HE is so bad, that I never even consider it unless my only valid targets are angled/armored in such a way that my AP will consistently bounce/shatter for 0 damage. And even then, I don’t try switching to it unless I’ve already fired AT LEAST one salvo of AP JUST TO BE SURE, because the overpens and the *potential* penetration/citadel are, in my experience, BETTER than whatever the HE could do.
Also, the German DD’s will almost definitely suffer from this. I feel like you tried to downplay how much this change would invalidate their AP, since it’s already a gamble whether it will be worth anything on the existing T8+ DDs in the game, because even with the higher armor, (which is now on its way out,) the width of the ships are only adequate to get penetrations on a handful of them.
As for the German cruisers.. well, if their AP is now able to overmatch the typical DD, and if they are consequently able to get full penetrations from it, then suddenly it’s worth switching TO AP for the extra damage that will come from it, because that’s just how large the gap is between the damage of those ammo types are for these cruisers. (It’s practically the same way for the German DD’s, but they barely have any valid targets to use AP on as it is.)
So in summary, this change is a:
Nerf to German Battleships that probably won’t change the way they are played, at all.
Nerf to high tier German DD’s that *will* affect the way you play them, seeing as one of their defining factors is getting effectively removed.
Potential buff to the German Cruisers, because if their AP is able to get penetrations on DDs, it will potentially be better against destroyers than the HE.
All things considered: I don’t like this change.
Coşkun Akalın while this is true you also have to look at DPM by those 152s. It adds up quick and while I don’t have a problem with light cruisers killing bold DDs, I do have a problem when 203mm AP can do the job much better because of the total output they can dish out with the Des Moines being the biggest culprit with its amazing high DPM output. If heavy cruiser AP is even more effective against DDs at the theoretical cost of BB AP losing its imaginary effectiveness against DDs, then I am against it.
The issue is a bug that WG has yet to fix. This is a poor way of fixing that issue and I’m pretty sure it’s an issue that’s easy to fix, they’re just being lazy with it.
At least this is just at the point of testing a proposal. Let’s just hope that they went back after realizing the main faults that are likely to appear during the change. Otherwise we are stuck with AP Des Memes and Battleship Hindenburgs.
Coşkun Akalın at least it’s not WoT WG. I think they’re smarter than this though.
Elf Loved unless they are the same people caused GZ fiasco
Coşkun Akalın 😂 good point. I’ve heard it’s a different crew though.
Notser, I hate this change. The only thing that needed tweaking was the double damage thing where BB AP could get overpen damage and full pen damage from the same shell on a DD. That was nonsense. But I do not think that BBs should have to switch ammo types. The reload time for BBs is too long to justify forcing them to switch ammo types to engage DDs. Switch ammo types to engage other BBs, sure. But not DDs.
This change also benefits RN BB while hurting non RN BBs since RN BBs are far more likely to be running HE most of the time, and thus won’t be in the situation of being forced to switch ammo types when a DD is spotted nearby nearly as often.
This is nothing more than catering to the DD mafia. And BTW, I play DDs more than any other ship type, so don’t think that this is a case of a BBaBBy crying. I play all types, just DDs most of all, and I see this from both sides. And think that all this whining is complete and utter nonsense.
Thanks, WG, it’s great that I have to switch shell types to something I’d never use otherwise to do effective damage to something that’s gonna go unspotted before my 16+ inch guns reload. Even the Germans won’t really be able to do this, and good luck even hitting a DD in a German battleship, but that’s what secondaries are for, I suppose. The Brits just spam HE anyways, so that’d be even less reason for them to switch, and USN and IJN battleships would be left with no means to kill a DD. Again. All this does is reward bad behavior from cruiser and destroyer captains while demanding impossible behavior from BB captains (or rewarding the HE spammers among us).
Let me lay this out: If a DD is broadside, okay, the shell should overpen every time, but if a DD captain is dumb enough to give me shots down the length of the ship, then you’re damn straight I should do full damage. Everyone else has to pay attention to angling, why should DD captains get any exemption? Because they have to angle differently? Even at tier 7, battleship captains have to learn that there’s more to angling than “hurr-durr bow-in,” so I don’t believe destroyers are any different there. Not to mention the Khaba is basically a light cruiser, so it really _should_ have to worry about BB AP; that’s just part of the tradeoff that ship makes and has been since the beginning. Again, this just rewards bad behavior by DD captains and punishes BB captains for having the discipline to wait for the right shots.
Sorrt Notser but what planet are you on? “Battleships are too good at every thing” really? DDs already have the stealth advantage and the ability to one shot a battleship with torps. That’s before you even consider rate of fire and ability to dodge battleship shells. I dont think the change will affect me much I shoot HE at DDs anyway but I have to question anyone who says battleships are too over powered.
Darth Peachy Theyre only the most played class in the game, often outnumbering the other classes 20:1 in the queue. Also the easiest class. Also incredibly effective at dealing with every other class. Also get their hand held more than any other class. Also generally the most impactful.
I pretty much only play the Alabama for battleships, and my winrate and damage is way higher than other classes in it. And its one of the “hardest” tier 8 bbs to play, with its shell velocity and big citadel, with no turtleback or secondaries to use as a crutch when you fuck up.
Who needs a citadel when you can take off half or two thirds of a BB’s health with one or two torps? Once again Notser let’s his bias show.
I feel like this only helps DDs in surprise 1-on-1 encounters with BBs. If you are exposed to multiple ships, the cruisers and DDs are more likely to cause damage due to their high accuracy and rate of fire, both of which lead to less RNG fail. So with thinner armor I think DDs would loose more than they would gain.
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