World of Warships – IFHE feels Irrelevant

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IFHE feels irrelevant for 99% of the ships, I’m interested to see try to replace some of these commander skills with more compelling designs. Discuss the and what I think is the problem, hope you have a wonderful day and I’ll catch you next time!

Tier VIII Cruiser Mogami Replay

67 Comments:

  1. Ah. IFHE. One of the skill I feel irritiate the most, since it basically make my Heavy Cruiser irrelevant. ( With IFHE a 155mm Mogami can potentialy out damage my New Orleans in with HE shell)

    And btw, I don’t think only 1% of ingame ship benefit from it. The whole Soviet Cruiser line except Moskva benefit from it. ( Don’t know if Donskoi benefit or not sonce I don’t play her, my grind stop at Chapayev)

  2. People complained the the commander skills needed to be changed. WG changes them and everyone (Notser included) loved it. Now here is Notser complaining about something that is a non issue

    • hmm … I don’t take PT on most of my DDs … russian ones are an exception … but IJN/USN/KM don’t really need it ..

    • No, it’s not. However, I have not been playing all that long and I’m pretty sure the skill tree has changed once already since I joined. I think a yearly review needs to be considered, though, with possible re-tiering of some skills (e.g. some of the firing training skills used to be level 1, now they are level 2 or 3, and I’d like to know why this was done). Note that I say review: this does not mean action should or will be taken, but it should imply transparent feedback at least between the programmers and the community contributors as to what might be changed, what will not, and why.

    • NO not a 5th row drop the number needed and increase the skill points if you add another row, it takes frikin forever now to get 4. just add some new items. Nice if they could make Elite captain skills that can be used on any Captain. a Reward for so much damage or something they did it once thats how I got mine for I have no 18 point Captains and I agree about priority target

    • I’ve been thinking the same thing for awhile. It is an issue especially for ships that cannot compete without a high skill captain. Harekaze and akizuki I’m looking at you. During game I’m no longer surprised, I know what ships will be using what skills because they have to. It’s just too predictable.

    • WG has lots of data of how many people have how many skills and everything. From one that trained up 3 different captains on the Benson to 15p in the old skill tree, with 15p being the low cap for getting concealment. Trust me, not that many in the general population was running concealment anywhere below T8.

      Having CE on 15p level, was like night and day, most destroyers never had that at all, it only became a must have at T10 and somewhat on T9. Even on T8 it was’t really what I would call common, far from everyone had 15p captains available.

      Now imagine that people that play a lot always have it, because 15p is not that much, but casual players often never reach 15p. Getting CE was such a huge buff, because you constantly saw people without it.

      This skill system is actually a lot more variable then the old one, the old was much more, this is your only build. 18p was enough to either get one 5p skill and a second 3p, or you could forgot the 5p and go for tripple 4p.

  3. My opinion is that HE damage should be percentage based on armor thickness like in WoT, not hard cutoff thresholds that we have now.

    • That would be cool but ships fire so fast and accurately that modules would get knocked out every salvo. I guess it would be better if there were more modules to destroy like radar antena, sonar bouy of whatever it’s called etc…

    • YES! THEN MY MOGAMI WILL RAPE UNDERAGE SHIPS EVEN HARDER!

    • Ivan Buncic they do. I’ve knocked all the AA off a Yamato with HE. Every salvo little AA guns floating to heaven.

    • that do not work that means high caliber HE does more damage while low caliber does none in most WoT cases. HE is in the game to give ships that do not have the ap pen to hurt other sips with a source to do damge. I dont like to see a WoT situatioin were a tank rolls out on you and you have 0 chance to do anything to it just becasue your 2 lev lower….

    • In Navyfield it was this way more or less. HE was meant to deal damage with plunging fire, i.e. penetrating the deck of enemies. AP was meant to deal damage with direct fire, i.e. penetrating the belt. If you couldn’t pen a belt (for example because you were in a light cruiser) you simply had to stay at range and hit them with HE.

      The ships are already modeled to that scheme, because they were designed that way in real life. But unfortunately WG reduced the real life ranges to stupidly short ranges in game, which makes battleship AP too strong for direct fire and removes plunging fire from the equation as well. And as a crutch they made HE the broken way they did.

  4. Eh, I feel like this is largely a non-point. The only ship that feels truly awkward without IFHE is Akizuki. And that can be fixed by probably improving the AP a little (i.e. British AP maybe?).

    Atlanta as mentioned in video is really unique, and ironically was just fine BEFORE IFHE. Now it’s just a bit stronger. Mogami without IFHE had one gun choice, and now has 2 choices. Seems like a good thing.

    Finally – No (in my opinion). Removing Concealment is dumb. Removing IFHE, is debateable at the very best. Captain Skills aren’t meant to be super interchangeable – each ship line should generally have a set of good skills, and then a ‘secondary’ set of ‘decent’ skills to add flavour.

    • Yes, every ship line should have its own set of good skills etc., but not every ships line should have the same set of good skills etc.

    • My main issue with concealment is how big of an advantage it is in low tiers. If I’m training up a captain and grinding up a line I’d expect to reach ten skills around tier 7. But people can just toss a 10+ skill captain on a low tier ship, especially a DD, and have a massive edge over anyone else.

    • To be fair, a LOT of the skills are big boosts at lower tiers – IFHE on the tier 6 152/155mm gunned CL’s makes them far more dangerous than similar non-skilled CL’s. Survivability Expert on a tier 5 DD is a fairly big improvement as well.

      Although Concealment is probably the _biggest_ contender for ‘seal clubber’s dream’ skill.

  5. I remember pushing forever to get to 15pts on the original commander line so I could invisifire on the Chappy, I believe, because that is what one “had” to do with it. Right as I got to that 15th point they changed the commander skill tree, made concealment available to basically everyone, and removed invisifire altogether.

    • I feel ya. Had that with the Akizuki where I pushed up my range to have like 2,5km invisi fire and puff… it’s gone

    • Been playing since beta, and one of the reasons I am pretty sick of WoWS and Wargaming, is they way they have wrecked my builds many times over since then. I consider Wargaming semi-criminal selling me one game, then changing into another game. It’s like being training to be a baseball player, going to a baseball game, just to find out the rules were changed and the game is now ice hockey.

      After it happens, IDK, four, five times now for me, you just stop caring about the game, grinds, winning, even finishing a battle that is going bad.

  6. Funny because i posted a comment on the Q&A section in the EU English forum asking for “more comprehensive” ships attributes instead of raw numbers and hidden values. All I had in response was elitist answers saying “if someone wants the info they know how to find them…”.

    I agree with you about lack of comprehensive data In Game.

  7. >WG introduces 2 mil rudder shift mod to help CA
    >At same time add BBs with very good concealment

  8. But… IFHE has never been good for 203s…

    • Chris Wallachy Ohhhhh. Very attractive indeed, but I won’t use it for my Zao. Zao’s main business is long range burning fire, and it’s very booming. XD

      And tbh I want the Supertest nerf of IHFE ( For those who doesn’t know, the early nerf IFHE reduce more fire change than the current form, about 8% for gun bigger than DD gun iirc), because with that you have to choose, raw damage or setting fire, not both like the current one. 😉

    • if the skill is useful only on DDs, then it has to move to 3 or 2 point category … DDs have at least 2 4 point skills (CE, RL, AFT) they usually need to take … I doubt there are more than a few 10 DD captains with IFHE (Akizuki and Harekaze being the exception)

    • Lubos Soltes Well, IFHE is mandatory for Ducky to be versatile. Harekaze, you can take the IJN 127 ( Bad gun, only use when go pure Torp DD, which only people grinding normal IJN DD Capt interested in) or USN 127 ( Which is…. shall I say, average). 😉

    • so again, an expensive and very situational skill is the conclusion ?

    • Don’t feel like getting into a pissing contest .

  9. Eh, I can take IFHE or leave it. It just seems a waste of skill points to me. If I’m switching to HE it’s for two reasons; fire or there’s a DD nearby.

  10. Kutuzov with IFHE and demolition expert, works great for me.

  11. Flambass had a point about removing standard battle. Those battles are just snooze fest.

    • I prefer Standard battles to Domination mode. I like playing stealthy ninja torp boat DDs and I think that Dom mode really sucks for those DDs. Torp boats are able to operate in a more free form way when there are no dom caps in the middle of the map.

    • I prefer standard too.

    • “Those battles are just snooze fest”. I am sure they are for some and domination is the same for others. I would much prefer more options and more diversity than less. Let’s not campaign for reducing maps and content, let’s campaign for more and better maps and mechanics.

    • i reckon battle royale style map, the borders shrink in, causing ships to move in aswell….

    • Battle royale? For me at least, god no. Pubg is that way. Each to their own I guess though.

  12. I wouldn’t call IFHE irrelevant. Any and all 152-180mm cruisers (not counting the AP-only Brits) plus Atlanta/Flint greatly benefit from it, much like almost everyone wants CE among their 4-point skills. Also, while poor variety in captain builds might be an issue, this does not prevent people to experiment and be creative. At worst they’ll have to reassign the captain skills, but you yourself showed us that, for example, a gun build for Shimakaze is not the best choice. That would be unique, but is it what helps such a ship the most? From your video on the issue no, it’s not.

  13. Notser I’ve been playing the game for ages and eversince Inertia Fuse came out I experimented with/without but it seems not to do anything except costing 4 skill points for a placebo effect. Thanks for the insight +1 as always to the point and well argumented critiques. Keep them coming we love your videos. For now: Have a nice vacation!

    • Well sir thanks for your elaborate answer. You say Russian cruisers tier 6-9 benefit. How bout the Moskva? Why would the Moskva with guns larger than 200mm NOT benefit from IF when using HE shells?

    • Because the the Moskva’s 220 mm HE penetration is already sufficient for most superstructure armor, so IFHE is a waste of 4 points on her, whereas the HE pen on the guns smaller than 200 mm is boosted enough to penetrate battleship superstructures that would otherwise shatter them. German cruisers are the exception, they have IFHE built into their he shells, so IFHE on german cruisers is pointless as well.

    • Aaaaahhhh that is now staring to become much clearer to me well thanks pal for this info! your info DOES prove that there is a ton of unclarity INGAME when you are in wows figuring out where to spend your captain skill points on a certain Destroyer, Cruiser, Russian, Japanese, German, and thinkign hmmm what shall I do well NOWHERE ingame is that made clear by how much roughly or exactly you should gain so most players just do something and thats what I meant by PLACEBO effect. Doing something and hoping its gonna have an effect worth 4 captain skill points. What I hope, and thats what the video poster said too(!) is that WarGaming provides a clearer INGAME explanation, PER nation and per ship type, by how much a change would effect the game. It reminds me about the whole unclarity about ship armor and after enough complaining of people like us like me(!) they made it so clear, transcending the original questions. I hope something similar would be made for captain skill points. ALSO I think many skipp points are so useless nobody ever uses/considers them. How about removing those and adding new skill points? I cant wait! 😉

    • Glad I could make things a bit clearer mate. You’re dead right, WG leave us completely in the dark when it comes to making informed decisions about where to spend captain points, some changes like you propose would be very welcome, here’s hoping.

    • Well said mate! Sail well!

  14. J Manuel Villarreal

    Not irrelevant for Atlanta, Belfast, Akizuki !

  15. Make a larger ring outside the cap circle – if you’re in it when the cap is taken, you get 75% of the normal capture XP/credits. That way, you get something for supporting the ships that took the cap. Just a thought.

    And, yeah, IFHE is a skill I’ve rarely taken – it’s just too difficult to tell whether it’s a benefit or not. Might as well just take Demo Expert and make sure to burn ALL THE THINGS.

  16. yup lets remove concealment! all the high visible DDs like Udaloy would be insta nuked! yeah good call Notser! did you hit your head? maybe smoke a bad batch? Concealment should be availble to DDs and CLs only. Oh look that solves the problem right there.
     Ever come across an IFHE GK? Bismarck? Tirpitz? i have! those Secbat hits do damage;sure maybe 50-150 points of damage but your being hit repeatedly…so your going to melt faster the closer you get,stacked with AR,BFT and AFT you now have a super brawler at close range.Notser just doesn’t see the minutia,IFHE has other uses than just beefing up main gun caiber HE performance.
     If your going to spruce up the skill tree then roll some of the skills like high alert and basics of survivability and call it improved survivabiity- -10% chance to fire,flood,and damage control party. Incoming fire alert needs to be rolled in with priority target and vigilance..name it Watch Standing. Expert marksman and expert loader can also be rolled into 1 skill..name stays the same. Add onto fire prevention with flood prevention ; fire stack to 3 floods to 3 as well as a reduced chance to fire and flooding and call it reinforced compartments.Since BBs and CVs won’t have concealment and we don’t want to gyp them a skill just for them Better Attack Solutions : -8% dispersion to all attacks from main battery,AA,SecBat,and air attacks. Since skills are being rolled into 1…we need more skills to replace em. Leave em below..lets see what you come up with and if Notser either agrees,disagrees,or modifies any of them at all. Challenge issued to all including Notser: lets see who picks up the gauntlet.

    • Doesn’t your first point just sort of prove that the skills are a bit wonky? Because you know there’s something wrong with the balance if a ship needs this skill to be competitive.

    • It does prove the skills are wonky..thats the point of it. if a DD like Udaloy has poor concealment it needs something more to be viable..a re work on balance. We all know WG doesn’t like to admit fault/overreach/imbalance at all. If concealment were taken away from everyone the whole game would need to be re balanced and overhauled..we all know how that song and dance goes,it ends badly for everyone. Give it to the classes that can make the best use of it;bring out the maximum potential of your ship while minimizing the weaknesses.

    • IDK I kinda agree with Notser CE should be removed. Just make every ship its CE value. Pretty much everyone takes it on every ship if they know whats best. When a Yamato is taking CE pretty much anything should take it I mean cmon its a no-brainer. IDC if your a long range soviet cruiser it helps you disengage immensly. I like your idea of meshing those skills you mentioned into one though, and adding more skills to compensate. The more the better. Every ship should have at least 2 viable builds on it with multiple variations still being reasonable.

    • Giving CE only to CLs and DDs sounds good at first but will make BBs and CAs camp even more dont forget that.

  17. For everyone saying “Noster, what about the light cruisers? What about all of those 155s, 152s, and 150s? We need IFHE on them to be useful!”
    That’s sort of the point. The skill tree is not diverse at all when it comes to doing builds for a certain type of ship. If you are going down a line like the Soviet Cruiser line, you need to take IFHE as soon as you have the points. If you don’t you’re hurting your own performance. The problem is that if everyone needs to take the skill to be useful then what is the point of having it as a skill?

    The argument here is that a good skill tree would offer real choices, where there are many ways to play the game. It’s really not surprising that Notser is pushing for this. He has a background in games like World of Warcraft where you can build your character to suit your play style. There are going to be bad builds for sure, but there should also be more than one good one.
    The only line that I feel has a great deal of choice when it comes to building the commander is the German BB line. There are a lot of skill that really give meaningful changes to the way that your ship plays.

    If there are many ways to play the game, even with the same ship, it can only benefit the player.

    • Jonathan Hooper yeah this is exactly right. My Bismarck commander and go for a concealment build, an aa build with manual aa and aft or a secondary build with manual secondaries – each build plays differently and has different strengths.

      But then I look at a ship like the Neptune – priority target, adrenaline rush, superintendent and concealment expert. Nobody should (or will) ever differ from those choices and someone who does will likely perform worse.

      CE is a requirement on most ships. It has far too great an effect without promoting a different play style or doing something unique.

      Apart from that, half the skills are completely useless anyway. I think part of the issue is that a skill that’s useful on a dd is unlikely to be useful on a bb and visa Versa, so it seems like many of the skills are irrelevent to a particular ship type.

      An example would be manual secondaries – this is effectively a Bb only skill. Not sure how they could fix this to be honest – maybe a commander has 4 skill trees for each ship type and whenever he levels he can put a point in each one?

  18. What about having DIFFERENT commander skills to choose from based on your ship class. e.g., Destroyer skills differ from Battleship skills?

  19. One thing that they could to to immediately improve the skills would be to introduce ship-class specific skills and move some of the existing skills under that umbrella. Sure, some skills would remain universal, but BB’s should not share all of the same skill combinations as the DD’s. For example, should a BB even have access to Concealment at all. Breaking out the skill tree would allow WG to introduce a richer variety of skills that players could use to really tailor their captains to meet their play style. I’d also REALLY appreciate the introduction of an assisted kill ribbon. How many times have you taken an enemy ship from full health to next-to-dead only to have someone else get all the credit for the kill from one lucky shell hitting the final blow? I mean, seriously, they give solo cap and assisted cap ribbons. Shouldn’t there be the same for the kills?

  20. So what we are saying is that WG balances ships based upon the captain skills expected to be taken instead of creating ship balance first then creating captain skills that can sit on top? In other words we are stuck with mandatory skills to cover poorly balanced ships. If we are left with captain skills that everyone takes then I agree we should just have them incorporated into the ships and game models to begin with, at least then there would be space to create new and more relevant captain skills.

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