Players have noticed recently the citadel of battleships appears to be easier to reach. I talk about some suggested reason for this feeling. Hope you have a wonderful day and I’ll catch you next time!
Tier VIII French Battleship Gascogne Replay
Wargaming just grew a pair. Hallelujah!
I honestly expect it to get reversed… It was probably an unintended consequence. WG loves its BB playerbase.
All decent BB player use angling that’s about the only skill in the game outside of knowing how to use the mini map.
“All decent BB player” Soooo…. All of 1% of the entire WoWS playerbase then. I mean, I’ve lost count how many times BBs didn’t value angling against cruiser AP… I’ve had matches where I dealt more AP than HE+fire damage in the Zao….
I did notice this citadel thing lately. It only stood out because I have seen Bismark’s getting pinned and that didn’t used to happen.
absolutely agree, good news!
Once cruisers can get citadels that’s when i will start questioning
(at long range on BBs)
But instead of it being a semi rare occurrence, it now happens very consistently. Check out some of the videos.
Patrick Baker 3 cits a volley, from daisy fresh to dead in a little over a minute. INSANE.
If the shell is large enough to penetrate the armor, why should it not get a citadel?
miked815, Do you know how turtleback armor is supposed to work? And I’m not talking just about plunging fire, I’m talking about getting cit’s on German BBs from under 10km.
miked815 the shell isn’t “big enough to penetrate” at all. That’s the problem. It’s somehow plunging at the edge of the outer skin at the waterline or just under it, going UNDER the turtle back. Normally this would be impossible, that’s why the turtle back is there. It can’t stop plunging fire through the deck, but it shouldn’t let shells by at waterline unless water penetration or something like it, or some change to deflection enables some crazy “magic bullet ” nonsense.
The shop was clearly designed to work at its current depth without old mechanics. The new mechanics make it a joke, it literally ignores that heavy belt entirely.
They need to either lower the turtle back belt, or… I don’t know. But the belt needs to at least function like how it does on the alcase.
“What’s with all these overpens?!” – Every French BB player I’ve met so far. Edit: Also noticing far more overpens on cruisers than before on for example my Missouri. Several volleys 12-15km distance on broadside cruiser, perfect waterline shots, they didn’t dodge, result were overpen overpen overpen overpen overpen.. Pretty sure I used to nuke them before when they sailed in a straight line full broadside.
Jognt Actually shell speeds determine a second factor… Arcs.
Fast shells have flat arcs – and have less distance to travel. E.g Zao or Roma
Slow shells with High arcs – have longer distances to travel- e.g NC, Warspits, Des Moines & Atlanta…
This longer distance travel – along with the slow shell speed – means – it takes more time for a shell to overpen a target, which is well within the arming time of the shell – and detonates much more likely within the citadel…
Which is why NC and Warspite along with RN BBS easily nuke even broadside destroyers because of the slower heavier shells with high arcs…
You don’t have to educate me on game mechanics. Shell speeds and arcs have not changed, the ability to citadel BBs more easily and citadel cruisers a lot less easily is what changed with the penetration ‘fix’. Your argument is like saying global warming makes sense because the sun keeps shining and thus keeps adding energy to our planet. It’s true, the sun keeps shining, but it’s completely unrelated to the issue at hand. Edit: I guess it makes sense, given your name.
Yeah. Bad mood. Doesn’t make it any less true though.
Jognt ‘’tis my fault – I assumed you only meant the French and not the armour penetration changes…
My favorite change in the 0.7.2 update? Seagal is GONE!!! Thanks God!
Chris Medeiros I wondered where he was, i thought i had dismissed him on accident
really? and what we get for losing a captain?
Pedro Gaspar All of us who had Seagal will still have the same captain, same points, skills and specialization, just that now it’s named John Doe and has a standard portrait. It’s just the image and voice of Seagal that are gone. WG concluded their collaboration with him and… Maybe it has to do with the accusations of sexual harrassment.
Captain John Doe instead
i didnt sign up for this…
No difference. You protect your citadel, you’ll be good for most parts. You make a mistake you should be heavily punishable.
Warmaker01 not no difference, have you seen how easy Flamu got double and triple citadels on French BB from a cruiser? It was effortless. He killed him faster than any BB could. It was raw unbelievable savagery. Totally broken.
This is a huge difference. Yes you protect that broadside but you do so at a knifes edge. If you are pushing and providing support for your team this will always be the case now though now it isnt a matter of if but when that citadel is coming and that is going to make people play even more passive than they already do. This change does nothing to fix anyones issues with BBs and only serves to exacerbates the problem.
Gross exaggeration, you showed someone, somewhere a bit too much side and paid for it.
it really isn’t. do your research. you’re just sticking your head in the sand.
to be fair, I’ve been trying my own test room experiments and it’d harder to replicate Flamu’s results than I would have thought. I did get one good cit with the New Orleans at the proscribed range. The Turtleback was as effective as a german one to my attempts at various ranges with Yamato. At very close range, it falls prey just as easily as an American one does, or a Yamato. But nothing I got, after 3 test rooms, was nearly as impressive as a close cheek shot to another Yamato.
Its now way to easy to citadel german BBs in my opinion. Beeing nearly unable to citadel was one of their big strengh, and I mean they still took big ammounts of damage with pens, also on the big superstructer. If you play the Kurfürst for example, you cant avoid giving broadside every time, and it gets punished so hard now…
They are still pretty much impossible to citadel at ranges of 13 km or less and that’s where you should be playing them. You could always citadel them at long range with plunging fire or shells that hit below the waterline. From the looks of things they just made it slightly easier to citadel them at long range.
Of course you’ll happily take advantage of being able to citadel German BBs now. Screw everyone but me, it’s the American way. 😛
German BBs being pretty much immune to non-plunging citadels was more than made up for by the fact that they eat huge normal AP penetration damage when hit in the upper belt, as well as having a gigantic superstructure that makes them HE fire magnets. Add on top that they have the smallest caliber (at tier 8) as well as the worst dispersion, and they were hardly overpowered. This change is disgusting!
Baal you wouldnt need to play british bbs to know that they have enough armour to bounce shells when properly angled. Any semi-decent bb captain should at least know what they can or cannot overmatch and which ships can overmatch his own. At t8+ they have 32mm of bow and stern plating which means the only thing that overmatch is either a yamato or musashi. Couple that with an insane concealment and a rediculous heal and you are very tanky provided you play correctly. At t7 they have 25mm of bow and stern armour which is inline with all other t7 bbs. Of course, if you insist on sailing broadside, no bb can offer enough armour as to prevent all damage. As an example i dumped a 20k salvo into a broadside tirpitz as a fuso while his return salvo only did 4k from a shell overmatching the bow and the rest bouncing off my angled upper belt which is only 203-150mm. In this case I would offer you the advice of: learn to angle your BB and stop showing broadside or in other terms, to ‘git gud’
Baal The Conqueror has 32mm all around, which can only be overmatched by Yamato’s guns. Proper angling means you can pretty much mitigate all damage from any other battleship.
Atimi90 German BBs still can’t be citadeled easily in brawling range, which is the entire point of turtleback anyways. Most of the new citadel hits are coming from rather long range shots, which turtleback wasn’t supposed to protect against in the first place.
Again, this all means that you’re encouraged to play your BBs better rather than sitting broadside on the map border or plowing directly into a cap point with zero regard to your flanks.
Not to mention, that German BBs were hit quite significantly by gameplay changes. The massive introduction of AP bombs for example… where essentially having armor is bad? Which affects mostly the german BBs. They have a rather weak torpedo protection, “meh Antiair”, which makes the ap bombs even worse. Just british BBs slinging their HE around in the fat superstructure… Tirpitz is still the heavy weight brawl champion, but her durability got worse in many situations.
@Winters004 Well, playing “better” will still mean for most of the BB players to hide more in the back, since it’s becoming more dangerous… I got your point, but you miss out the point of having a lot of potatoes in the game, who really only think about “No-Scratches on my ship!” and in that sense, this change will just enforce the current potato BB gameplay rather than having more BBs going in and providing that tank support which is needed for fun gameplay for every other class
Atimi90 As I said before, pussies will always play like pussies, regardless of the characteristics of the ship they’re playing. I still saw plenty of German and British BBs hiding in the back back when they were still uncittable. This is an issue on the player side more than the ship balance side.
This would incite BB players to go for that enemy BB player, who is sailing broadside for almost the whole match instead of the cruiser who is desperately trying to angle and mitigate damage (who normally get random citadelled). I think this is a good thing, as it makes it more important for BB-players to angle and prioritize targets and therefore a bigger skill gab. In addition, it makes the life of the cruiser player a bit easier (which is definitely needed)
I agree with you. I switched to BB from Cruisers, but Cruisers should more present. BB’s are 50% of the ships, every time, the match become more and more boring, if not really predictable…
Nah kill the cruiser, ram the BB, earn the glory!
Nominally, you’re correct that a BB is supposed to tank damage. However, that is against AP and a few random torpedoes. Conversely, the meta in the game is now nothing but HE spam from every class of ship. It is impossible to tank damage from HE spam. There is no defense against it even if you go full zombie build. In the time it takes for the heal to complete and your repair party is in cool down, one can be set afire in 3 or 4 places and die before the heal or repair party come available. Tanking in this game is now an after thought. This is WG’s answer to having too many BBs in the game: force players to reduce or stop playing them for ships that excel at spamming HE.
Dude u do know RN Cruisers cant shoot HE yeh?
I don’t want islands. Not getting spotted puts more pressure on everybody that is spotted. island cowering is selfish and has nothing to do with naval warfare. If cornerscraping is your thing, stick to tanks.
are the germans going to get a sigma buff to compensate? that was a trade off for the tankiness…
You might get a slight increase, but that’s probably it.
obviously in operations …who wouldve thought. i have games in operations where i have 30-40 citadels, vs targets i would in PVP always get denied even if the angle was absolutely in the same ballpark.
you are seriously retarded, just like people said we are just here to discuss the change which is the point of the community, but during some recent conversation i always see imbeciles who is always obese with anyone communicate with other player of any battleship related content
I know right! So many autistic
The germans are still really tanky but you can actually get the citadel at 15-16 km + if they are broadside
To be honest i am more concerned about the absolute dog shit performance we are getting on the EU server at the moment , once you play 4 or 5 games the lag spikes and FPS rubber banding/drops gets insane
It has been crappy here too, I restart the client every 3 or 4 games because of it
Sorry, Notser, but that ‘analysis’ is terribly flawed. You’re merely guessing that it was intentional. Your claim “it’s by design” is touchingly naïve yet WG has a long history of bugs even in this game. There was a bug in turret armour (of Yamato I think) that meant main gun turrets were being KO’d by 8″ guns at one point, for example. Not that it’s really your fault. Their comment about “enhancing shell contact with armour” is so vague as to be meaningless. What does ‘enhanced’ mean? We have no idea. Yet another example of WG being needlessly opaque, keeping their customers ignorant because WG has a perverse proclivity to do so in both WoWS and WoT. You can’t claim it’s as intended because WG has never stated what they changed or, more importantly, what effects the changes are intended to have. That is just atrocious change management and customer interaction. They OUGHT to say “this is what we changed and here are the effects it ought to have”, pure and simple. But, no, they keep everyone guessing. If you don’t know what it’s meant to do, how do you know the new experience is as intended? You can’t. As to saying it’s not a nerf, that’s plainly ludicrous. If German BBs get hit with citadels regularly, even when closing the range as they are meant to do, how is that not a nerf to them? They take huge damage from pens in the superstructure as it is. If your position is “it might not be a bad thing for BBs, or certainly SOME BBs, to take more damage when broadside at certain ranges”, that’s an argument you can make. Hell, I’m sure a lot would agree with you. But clearly it’s a nerf. Again, just typically appallingly bad WG communications. I don’t know why, but they seem constitutionally incapable of providing information to keep their customers as informed as possible and that sure as hell ought not be regarded as a good thing. In just about any other industry than the perverse one of gaming it would cause your company a load of grief, and rightly so.
But they do say what it changes directly.
Claiming they’ve said what it changes reminds me of a funny thing I saw as an exchange in pilot technical issue logs and the follow up by the maintenance engineers: Pilot: something loose in the cockpit Engineer: something tightened in the cockpit. Sure, it says what changed i.e. something was tightened. Are you any the wiser as to what it means?
You originally were arguing that they didn’t say what was changed at all. You obviously don’t read patch notes.
^This. A whole lot of it. That release statement was so vague I though; “Damn, WeeGee went and hired themselves a lawyer” One who specializes in writing ad copy or political speeches by the sound of it.
thats easy, the pilot heard a rattle but couldnt pinpoint it. the engineer found a loose screw and tightened it. now its up to the pilot again to hear if the rattle was fixed. unfortunately neither the pilot nor the engineer knew it was the islands all along. get rid of islands.
Less than 24hours ago played 3 games in my yamato for long time. 144k 182k and 220k dmg. I have not seen that kind of consistent dmg in long times. Was able to citadel things like old times. I think I’ll start playing it more often again coz now it feels satisfying and fun.
I don’t mind improved damage calculations. I’m just worried the average BB player will be even MORE passive than before
Although reading the comments it appears Kriegsmarine BBs are now completely ruined since they just lost their major advantage to help them get into optimal range for their terrible accuracy..
agree…feel kind of cheated on as a frontline German BB player =/
So my yammy is going to get deleted faster… great
RNG maybe good but not if the extremes are too big… when i get a good opportuniy, most of the time RNG just fucks me over again and again.
In War Thunder, this kind of changes is announced as follows: « The stability of the client has been improved » End of notice…. So we are rather spoiled that WG even tells us this kindof stuff XD
Nononono “Yamato has been adjusted according to datasheets” *Castrates Yamato AP penetration*
5 months later: “Yamato has been adjusted according to datasheets” *rolls back aforementioned changes*
Yeah but they DID tell us, right? In WT, after stability has been improved yet again, sometimes you find out that they added a glaring weakspot to your favorite tank’s turret armor, or that your plane’s wings now rip 100km/h earlier. Without any patchnote to back it up. Because it’s not balancing, they just made it historically accurate, and found new historical evidence, duh! How they get this new evidence? Man i’d really like to know. Maybe they bribed the KGB archive’s cleaning lady or had a ouija séance with Willy Messerschmitt, idk…
Wanted to add that it’s not just battleships vs battleships that are getting a huge increase in citadel hits, it’s also cruisers that are cit’ing BBs at 15-19km range. And I disagree that it is not a nerf. If you are playing a German BB then it is an extreme nerf. They already pay a high price for having that turtleback armor with terrible dispersion, low firing range and taking greater damage from normal AP penetration. Getting into brawling range is now so much harder than what it was, and it wasn’t easy before. Just my 2 cents.
I had a citadel hit on a broadside Kurrywürst with my Baltimore a couple of days ago. I was like “whaaaaaaa?? Did that just happen?” Is that normal by pre-7.2 standards? 🙂 (it could have been the Friedrich, not sure, I was alittle baffled … maybe I just got lucky for once. :p )
I citadeled a colorado with a benson once, sometimes crazy things happen.
Hmm, well, it was a rather long range shooting. So plunging fire rather than straight into the side. Was more of a spur of the moment snap shooting that I never really thought would land. So got extra bewildered when I not only hit it, but citadelled it. :p
As a pure BB player…. I’m kind of Ok with the easier citadelling, even though it’s a nerf on tanking/front line BBs such as the Kurfürst –> even less people will be pushing with their BBs = Even less fun gameplay with everyone just camping in the back.
For the French BB line….I’m also kind of disappointed that they would make the T10 so bad….I mean, I’m ok with only 8 guns, no nice consumables (Hydro or plane)…but then, only having faster reload does not compensate for all those weaknesses and on top being the least tanky BB in the whole game (at T10). I think there is no justification having less armor, especially against Cruisers which will just HE you to death (even without fires). Any even small change/improvement on the T10 French would be highly appreciated and also would make the grind to T10 worthwhile.
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