Datamined information about the Lyon and holy smokes she looks like she’s going to be one hell of a battleship at tier 7.
Given the position of the rear guns, most probably this ship will charge in reverse. 🙂
best joke in the world ………….
you are not already tired of this? because i am
ohhhhhh yes i am
It is legitimately a tactic… Employed by some Amagi players to bring the six aft guns to bear on target (and also be pointed in the correct direction to disengage should the situation becomes unsafe for them)
16 guns? Jeez, you don’t need anything else with that many cannons
I am really looking forward to this sexy beast. It’s as if la Marine Nationale looked at the New Mexico and said “Pfft, the Americans think that’s enough guns? Amateurs.”
I totally just read that with an outrageous French accent in my mind hihihihi
I’m honestly far more interested in French BBs than the British (except Nelson, love Nelson, my favorite BB of all times irl). They seem like the fast, flanking type rather than the HE spammers the British have become. Lyon with the incredible firepower and Richelieu with that good speed + 8% speed boost are both looking like extremely fun ships at the moment.
nice video mate cant wait to see the France BB and keep up the good work xD
armor is weak if u ask me it will sink fast
At long distances and even medium range, you will still hit all the vulnerable parts with fast HE. And at close range, you can target the sections specifically. Is the Khabarovsk a bad firestarter due to it’s 900 m/s shell velocity? Is Moskva with it’s 985 m/s? For HE, all it does is making it easier to hit the target. It is a benefit, not a drawback.
As this is BB shells with 56mm of penetration, you have other options than just the superstructure(compared to DDs, which have a hard time penetrating anything else on enemy BBs). Bow, stern and the deck of most(if not all) BBs you will face will get penetrated by your HE shells. And the volume of fire means that you will hit multiple sections of the target quite easily, spreading the damage around.
Even if the target somehow became saturated at multiple locations without sinking(the same would be true with AP shells btw), the amount of fires you are able to start ignores this. Setting 2 fires when the target BB is already down to 7k health and have already used it’s repair and heal, is a death sentence at tier 7(2x fires of, let us say, 40 seconds, is on a 50k based BB 12k damage). That is one of the issues with HE. As long as you are able to set fires, you can ignore damage saturation. AP shells will still only deal 0 damage(unless you overpen or hit the citadel).
And no, most ships at your tier will not be able to automatically go through all your plates at any angle. Sure, your bow and stern is 25mm(as is all other tier 7 BBs), but you have a 30 mm deck and 30 mm “spaced armor” on the belt, which can bounce up to 429mm shells(in other words, no ship you will ever face). On top of that, you have strong casement armor, helping protect your citadel, so even if your bow gets penetrated, the risk of a citadel is lower than on most other tier 7 BBs. So if you angle at about 20-25 degrees to your target, at long range, the enemy AP will either pen(or overpen) your bow, or bounce off your 30mm plates. Maybe hit your superstructure. Either way, it is quite durable at long range, and it has the best fire power of any tier 7 ship at that long range.
And no, it is not better to have fewer layers of armor against BB AP(in this game), because as long as all the plates are sufficiently thick(like, 30mm), but not thick enough to arm the shell alone, you get a ricochet check if at the right angle. 380mm shells will require something like 60mm or more to arm the fuze, meaning you get at least 2 checks where you have 30mm armor plates.
This means that an AP shell hitting at a 30-45 degree angle(chance of a ricochet) have to test several times before it has penetrated enough and can arm itself. It might ricochet on the outer 30mm plate, or it might penetrate that, but ricochet on the next layer of armor. This makes it much harder to hit the citadel even if the ship presents a 42 degree angle(in this case, firing it’s broadside). In some cases, even if it penetrates the outer layer of spaced armor, it “disappears”, dealing no damage(as to why this happens, it is suspected that the shell penetrates the outer shell, but ricochet off the second layer, and “overpenetrates” out of the ship again, or that it keeps on to ricochet until it runs out of kinetic energy).
BB AP shells rarely shatters, unless you hit a very heavily armored section at an angle, and you dont ricochet. And that your shells have bad penetration values. Then they might shatter. At tier 7, that is only at an angled belt(increased total thickness due to the angle). Which means it is close to “ricochet test”-territory anyway, and AP will in general be less effective here.
If you hit your target broadside on, it does not matter if you have 340mm or 381mm guns, you will penetrate, unless you are at extreme range.
It is better to have less plates that are either too thick or too thin. This is precisely the reason short fused AP does full penetration damage on the superstructures of English Battleships, because if you look at their armour model, they have the different decks and rooms modeled with each wall/floor being 16mm. If the entire structure was made of just one skin of 16mm then that’s better than having multiple since it would cause an overpen instead of a regular penetrating hit.
When we are talking BB superstructures vs BB AP, the shells will either pen or over pen based on the amount of structure it will have to go through, and the fuze length. Against several layers of thin armor, sure, AP will have a better effect compared to a single sheet of “paper”, which it is much more likely to overpen(same reason why you overpen DDs often with BB AP).
But against the belt(or torpedo bulge+belt, as it is in this case) or the deck+citadel/casement armor of a battleship, only having 1 layer wont make a difference against AP, because there is enough “mass” to arm the fuze in either case. It will either ricochet on the initial impact, or penetrate. With several layers(30mm +200-something), we get two chances for a ricochet when at a 30-45 degree angle, instead of just one.
The reason why some of the French cruisers can be a pain to kill when angled, is due to their spaced armor. You simply have more ricochets against them, than you would other cruisers. I believe iChaseGaming made a video about this at some point.
So while the armor is thin compared to some of the other tier 7 BBs, if well angled, it could prove just as tanky. And the range and firepower of your artillery makes up for being a bit of a glasscannon anyway.
So how would you engage it, if you were in a tier 7 ship?
By outlasting it. Of course you have to be the correct tier VII ship (I’m looking at the Nelson). Failing that, the Nagato can win a long range engagement because of her very good shot placement ability (however this is entirely based on the player’s ability to play the ship) Because what good is a 6000 damage fire that takes nearly a minute to do it’s damage if two penetrations with AP will do it.
If you’re the Colorado… well the Colorado’s really basically fucked in most match-ups with the other tier VII battleships (thing so needs a buff).
The Fast German (and the hood) needs to get close and out DPS her with AP pens and rely on their tankier armour to make the Lyon waste time trying to set fires to do damage effectively.
The KGV… I don’t know… I honestly do think it’s the worst of the tier VII battleships since I’ve never lost a gunnery duel with that thing in any of the other tier VII battleships. Simply put, HE really is not as dangerous as people make it out to be when doing BB vs BB engagements (thought this might be helped that I’ve got lots of things like captain perks and signals and upgrade modules that basically make moot the effect of HE and fires and I understand that not all players can afford this).
The majority of the Lyon’s damage wouldnt be from fires, but the HE itself. As I have said, due to it’s mobility, it can easily wiggle between a 25 degree angle(autobounce unless overmatch), and the 42 degree required to fire a broadside(or 31 degrees if you “only” want to fire 8 guns). It outranges the Nagato and has twice as many guns. Smart play of the Lyon will force other ships to fire HE at it, if they want consistent damage at that kind of range, and the Lyon far outclasses them at that.
Sure, the Lyon’s guns are of a smaller caliber than most of the other tier 7 ships, but they still deal 1500 HE damage per penetration. Skipping the math, if 12 out of your 16 shells hit, you will deal 10k damage + what ever fires may occur(which with 12 hits, there is a good chance of at least 2, which against the Nagato will deal 390 damage per second. So over a 20 second period, it would have accumulated to 7800 damage).
For the Nagato to match that with it’s “accurate long range fire”, it will have to penetrate with 5 HE shells. Just landing 5 shells at that range, with 805 m/s shells will be quite impressive. You can attempt to fire AP, but chances are that at that range, a lot of them will ricochet(which is why most BBs fire HE at long ranges). The Nagato shells will hang in the air for about 10 seconds at long range, meaning any change of course from a semi-fast target can make the “accurate” shells miss.
The fast German BBs cant close into brawling range fast enough, against a ship that can fire 8 340mm shells while retreating at 27 knots. If the Lyon wants to make a fighting retreat, most tier 7 ships will pay for trying to chase it. If it had American speeds(about 23 knots) it might have been possible to close fast enough before taking too much damage, but not at 27 knots.
The Nelson is the best bet of countering it, because the Nelson is borderline broken in a “bow-in” artillery duel(+ the very good heal). However, it is slow and has a max range of 18.2km. So all the Lyon has to do, is attempt to fight it beyond that range. And as it is faster, and can fire 8 guns while retreating, it might just do that.
I agree that HE is not “as big of a problem” on most ships. But it is reliable, especially at range. And here we have a ship that not only appears to be a great firestarter(16×26% chance of fires per salvo), but have a high HE damage potential per turret(about 50% higher than the Nagato). Flags and captain skills, as well as modules, can reduce the effectiveness of fires a bit, and yet you would rarely get it below a 40 second duration, or reduce the fire chance per HE shell to below 15%. And you cant reduce the HE damage itself, which is the main threat.
Finally, fighting against other BBs is one thing(at least they can endure it a bit), but Cruisers and DDs do really not want to be targeted by this thing. Getting a 10k salvo blobbed onto you, knocking out modules etc. is really painful. And if it is firing at 17km range, you cant even fight back properly. Or if you are caught broadside, and the Lyon fires 16 AP shells at you. Even if only 5 penetrates(less than 1/3 of your shells), that is still over 15k damage done.
The best bet of taking down the Lyon before it starts wrecking left and right, is to catch it on it’s broadside and punish it’s low healthpool with a strong AP volley. Which is easier said than done.
Her guns were some of the worst battleship guns ever, under 500mm of pen will be fun, but hey 16 rounds so something will stick
tier 5 New York speed 792m/s vs 780m/s shell mass 680.4kg vs 585kg krupp 2 604 vs 2408
hell even tier 5 Giulio Cesare 320mm gun could be close speed 830m/s vs 780m/s shell mass 525kg vs 585kg krupp 2 600 vs 2408
also as posted below by @Achim Hanischdörfer Lyon shell weight: 585kg KGV shell weight: 721kg
they should remove he on that line 😀
Conqueror at tier 7 is the Nelson…
nelson can be heavily punished when shown board side (hell even bow on) and eats ton of penetration damage from other Battleships (with 380mm+ guns).
pretty ugly i thought.
Turtleback – that appears to be inclined above 60 degrees and is thick enough to prevent overmatch? So its Citadel Proof – at point blank and mid ranges then huh… Sigh*.
Looking forward to her. Enjoy French ships, they play very uniquely.
I’m confused why Dunkerque has a 1.7 sigma, but this ship, *with the same guns* gets a 1.8.
The guns are a bit deceptive. They are 13 inchers while everyone else at this tier has 15 or 16 (well, aside from KGV at 14). This means that unlike the other battleships she’s seeing, she can’t overmatch anything at all. It also means that all tier 8 cruisers can bounce her shells. Also, her firing angles are atrocious. Very strong broadside power, of course, but turning to 45 degrees means losing the auto bounce protection for her thinner armor. So in the end, she totally has the ability to oneshot broadside ships, but will be very ineffective against smart players who go bow on or angle.
Her armor and AA is excellent, though. Mind you, one thing I never did figure out .. how do AP bombs work when dealing with multiple layers that are all thinner than it’s fuse trigger? For example, USN AP (and dear god, i hope this changes before the USN CV changes go live) fuses at 70mm. But none of those layered decks is 70mm thick. Is there a point where the fuse would auto trigger from being slowed down by punching through all those layers?
13.5 inches to be precise
Angling lol Shoot AP at their superstructure, I get 7k damage w/ Indy against bow-on Gneisenau
But somehow I feel like dem FR BBs will have the Cancer HE from RN BBs to compensate the low-caliber guns.
16 340mm HE shells. Even with lower fire chance and HE damage, you have 16 of them. They will be able to penetrate the deck, bow, stern and superstructure of most ships it can go up against(56mm of penetration).
At about 1500 damage per HE penetration, even if only 1/4 of your shells penetrate per salvo, that is still 6k damage. That is better than if a Nagato only hits and penetrates with 1/4 of it’s salvo. And if you get a good salvo on target(10+ hits), you will probably deal about 10k of HE damage, with a good chance of setting fires.
And it is a tier 7 ship, meaning it can fight tier 5(lol), and have a decent enough range, AA and mobility to be beneficial at tier 9. It’s only real drawback(as it is right now), is that it is a bit of a glass cannon(in terms of health, not armor). But hey, if you can destroy your enemies before they can kill you, that is not really a problem.
As it is now, it will be the strongest tier 7 ship. Maybe even the strongest tier 8(as in, fighting in tier 8 matches).
And while you do that and deplete the Gneisenaus superstructure (afterwardw hich the dmg will fall off sharply) she closes the distance, overmatches your armor and just kills you. Armor is meant to reduce dmg not negate it completely and BBs normaly have the HP (and heals) to spare and just take it.
Karl Barbosa Scharnhorst has 11 inchers. Is she a bad BB? A weak one? The game is a bit more than drooling on numbers and theoretical overmatches. Gid gud boay.
One word: overpowered
With 16 guns every salvo will stick with one of the best ranges at T7? That’s more than KGV, Gneisenau and Colorado. 1.8 sigma is the biggest BS here. 16 guns, 20km range, 1.8 sigma. Absolute BS.
@-ACHTUNG-: The Lyon is faster and more mobile than the Nelson, has better range and better damage potential per salvo(full HE salvo is 20700 for the Nelson and over 25k for the Lyon, which is only beaten by the Conqueror’s 12 419mm HE salvo potential, a tier 10 ship). The Nelson is a bit more accurate(sigma) and has a strong optimal firing angle as well(but that is not much of a factor in a HE duel).
The Lyon has much better long and medium range AA(a combined 270 DPS at 3.5 km range, while the Nelson only has a combined 155 DPS at 2.5km, and only 36 at 4.5km), and so stand a much better chance against CVs or for removing enemy support aircraft.
Stealth if fairly comparable. Nelson has slightly better surface detection range(500 meters better), while the Lyon has better air detection range(900 meter better). The Nelson has it’s special heal(which kind of forces you to pick premium repair and/or superintendent).
So the Lyon, a “standard” non-premium ship, is giving Nelson, a premium powerhouse, a run for it’s money. Against ships like the Gneisenau(6 15″ guns), you will completely outgun your opponents with your 16 gun setup. Just fire HE all day and the Lyon will make every other ship regret getting into the queue.
Slowing down the ship(down to 23knots) and increasing the reload(32-34 seconds) seems like a good start to balance out the Lyon.
See the problem with the Lyon is that her damage potential per salvo is something she will not get to do very often since her accuracy and her terrible firing arcs will drag that down. It doesn’t matter how well protected your citadel is if the enemy is landing 12-18k white damage hits on your broadside everytime you try to fire all your guns. Remember that the most important thing to a Battleship is her guns, but having a lot of them or big ones isn’t enough, the most important thing to a battleship as many players would say (including the streamers and community contributors) is gun handling and reliability.
People take a look at this and sees the number of guns and scream OP without getting down to the more important details that allow one to put to use the weapons of a ship.
42 degree for a full broadside is not much of an issue when you have the range and mobility to avoid return fire. Stay at 15 km range, fire broadside HE(with a velocity of 921m/s), angle against potential return fire(which will take a long time to reach you), then go back back to the 42 degree angle and fire another 16 guns.
It is very similar to the KGV(they both have a 42 degree forward angle for broadside), but the Lyon has better range, better mobility and stronger broadside.
Even if you choose to avoid full broadside, you can still fire 8 guns at a 31 degree angle, which is what most tier 7 ships have for a full broadside. How many tier 7 ships can fire their entire broadside at a 31 degree angle(aside from the Nelson)?
See the problem here is that you’re firing guns that are even smaller than the KGV’s… and the KGV already struggles fighting same tier battleships with it’s guns…
See what people forget about HE is that your viable targets with HE when the target is doing the bow tanking shenanigans would be the superstructure and the bow, both of which will get damage saturation very quickly.
And once they’re damage saturated, there goes all your alpha strike, you now have to rely on the fires for damage, and fires are a terrible form of damage to deal to battleships because all fire damage is repairable by repair party consumable.
The KGV is not struggling at all. It is just about the 2nd best performing tier 7 BB in the game(in terms of win rate and average damage).
It uses HE against most BBs(unless they show broadside) and AP(or even HE, due to damage/penetration values) against Cruisers and DDs. So that is a bad example.
HE can deal damage to the deck as well, especially BB HE(in this case 56mm of penetration). It is nearly impossible to get all of those sections saturated(especially the middle section), and even if it happens, fires ignore this. The vast volume of shells mean that you will hit multiple sections of a ship, so damage saturation is less likely.
And remember, damage saturation also works with AP. If you have completely saturated your target(either through AP or HE), only fire/flooding, citadels and overpens can deal damage to the area.
Sooo … cram her belly with torps ? Looks to have the same weakness than German BBs. Full pen damage between armor belt and deck and citadels from mid-long range via the same spot …
I want the Szent Istvan in the game xD
What program is he using to do this?
3Dmodels or something like that, but you must pay to have acess to it.
Make japanese dds great again
Looks like a better version of the okt rev
unpopular opinion here…These French Battleships are ugly as fuck
until tier 8… form 8 onwards o la la…
The French navy from the second half of the 19th century used the “Fierce Face” design philosophy. To make their ships as intimidating as possible they designed them to look like floating castle fortresses. That’s why the Corbet, Bretagne, Normandie and Lyon have this “stacked on” look. Unfortunately that “style over function” approach comes at the expense of seaworthiness and stability.
It was until the design of the Dunkerque class that the French navy took a practical approach to ship design. The sleek look was an unintended consequence of practical design.
why get excited about power creep, and the rush to get op ships just to have them nerfed down the road?
when I think what the sharnhorst and the brits can do, then this 16(!!!) 340mm that’s ridiculous. cruisers will die left right center and so will bbs and dds. and mind you the sharn has only 9*283 and it still can wreck bbs cruisers and dds quite easily if you know where to aim.
What Website are you using there? It seems very helpful and I cant find it on google
Found it : https://gamemodels3d.com/games/worldofwarships/
But not free 🙂
Ah thanks. Some of the ships you can look for free though 😉
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