Loading...Hey guys! Today we discuss the effect known as an echo chamber, enjoy!
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The problem is that people hate whatever gave them a bad experience, and it doesn’t objectively matter what that is. Subs, CV’s, HE Spam, Torp Spam, etc. etc. The reality is that kind of mindset removes the ability to accurately discuss the game’s positives and negatives. Do I personally dislike subs? Yes, but it’s not because their overpowered, it’s because they’re not fun to actually kill, as a ship with ranged ASW it’s like some annoying side task to send you’re planes against them, as a DD or light cruiser it’s very much down to how well their team is supporting them and if they make a mistake, nothing YOU as the DD player do, feels like an expression of skill. Hunting subs needs to be more dependent on the hunter and less on the sub player getting screwed in some way.
The only problem with your argument is you are overlooking the matching…it’s totally bonkers having T7 against T9
@Whykikamoocowit’s always been that way. 8 been on this since 2017 ans that was around
CVs are one change away from being mostly ok: change their spotting to be minimap only for the rest of the team. Obv there are still going to be some outliers and a good number of them still have overtuned damage numbers, but the biggest source of frustration is gone. Subs need some kind of full rework to actually fit in the game if they can at all, given that the expected counters, hydro and DDs, are near useless against them. No reason for hydro to not work at full range and the ship type that should be theoretically best at dealing with subs should not be the absolute worst at dealing with them. Not to mention their absolutely overtuned numbers, some of the high tier ones go absurdly fast when dived so some DDs cant even catch up to them, and there is no world in which the gato and balao should have more torpedo DPM than yamagiri, it’s absurd
@Jammo I’ve said that forever, remove team spotting for cvs, and have them only appear on minimap.
Imho the problem with subs has always been the flawed interactions with other classes of ships. Either they were too weak or they are just too strong and the only counterplay against a good sub player is just to flee. WG is just incapable of balancing ships and it makes the game worse. It makes people upset. And it’s not an isolated case. I think social medias concerning WG have become an echo chamber for the worse because there are very few things which really imporved the game since the CV rework. People got the habit of being disappointed.
Can’t flee if the sub is faster than you. So unless you’re in a Kleber you’re screwed
The solution to the “sub problem” is easy. OPEN UP WOLFPACK!!!
In Wolfpack, subs should be on one side, and allow other players to do escort, and no requirement for DIVS!
the biggest problem the game faces is the player base, same with any online game, the one sided games are getting more frequent, you have 3 game on the trot where the team falls apart and you think why bother playing anymore
true
brain dead players failing their way to tier 10 then blaming wg for “ruining the game” is why don’t play much anymore as well.
And it will only get worse, as there is a mass exodus of veterans and good players. Only bad players left. Thank WG for that.
Three games in a row? I just started playing again after about six months of being away from the game. The *norm* is to have maybe one or two wins for six or more losses. Over the weekend, I played 14 games and only two were wins. And then you get in the matches where some idiot YOLO’d into the enemy fleet and was sunk three or four minutes into the match and then sits in chat complaining about how some other player is horrible.
@Josh Johnson Players have to learn to play against other humans. From what I see it is not going to happen at lower levels. I have only seen 4 or so players queueing for games at the lower tiers.
So far at tiers 1 through 4, 99.9% of the boats I play against are bots. I see a human in the game against me every 4 games or so.
After seeing this video, I assume that will change around tier 6 or 7?
It’s just every time they add a level of play Subs, Radar, Ect… it’s adding a level of difficulty too the game and it was hard enough as it was. Humans are just creatures of habit, we take time to except change.
The player base will destroy my interest of this game LONG before WG could dream of. This is the hill I will defend and die on.
It all comes down to 1 core problems: WarGamings own attitude and communication to playerbase. Sure there is small vocal group that goes in reddit / forum / youtube whatever. However. The playerbase and the CC’s warned about CV rework, it was not ready, they pushed it in. Playersbase and testers had concerns submarine interaction with surfacefleet. They pushed still submarines main game and interaction problems are immense. Frankly, WG doesn’t listen playerbase or betatesters properly. And how they treated LittleWhiteMouse cannot just be explain by bad communication. There’a also toxic corporate leadership that take all suggestion and criticism as personal assault. I was hoping this would be past since Lesta got separated but appareantly WarGaming EU / NA has unfortunately taken Leadership model from Lesta and all the bad things Lesta’s corporate culture has.
I think Sea Lord’s point is that the the people in the forums that “warned about the CV rework” believe they represent the “playerbase” and wonder why didn’t WG hear what they were saying but there is no solid proof that they do represent the playerbase. I find they don’t represent me. Once in a while I agree but that’s only by chance. Other topics I don’t. But to say “WG” doesn’t listen to “the players” is wrong. WG doesn’t always listen to the “echo chamber”.
Subs in Convoy mode and Wolfpack would make for a good compromise, subs in Randoms can make for a miserable experience. Not much fun getting pinged constantly and getting chased all over the map by subs!!
This isnt a gaming problem this is a 2023 problem. As a whole the human population has been more and more hostile to anyone that doesnt agree with their views. Politics, games, cultures, social media platforms, are all big examples. Civil discussion has become more rare, and echo chamber/canceling opposing views is becoming more mainstay. Its made the most pbvious by fringe noisy groups. If youre being honest count how many times on youtube you make an opinion that isnt hostile, open to get good discussion, and you get (wrong, you’re stupid, etc).
Hate to break it to you but this is not a 2023 problem, people have been hostile on the internet for as long as the internet has been around. I started playing online games back in the late 90’s with Everquest. That community was very toxic towards each other and the devs.
@Mantose262 you missed my point. I didn’t say it started in 2023, only that it’s a 2023 problem. Everything prior doesn’t matter as we live in the present, not the past. People have been shitty to each other since the beginning of time. Internet age and being anonymous makes it easier to be shit to each other since you are “safe”. But as of 2023, and for however long into the future, people will continue to exercise this behavior. As you point out it’s not unique to WG, it’s not unique to gaming community, it’s just our current cultural apathy, nihilistic attitudes, and general disregard for others that puts us where we are.
@Moon Cricket Stinks Your opinion is noted.
My point is people have always been toxic online, 2023 is no different than 30+ years ago.
The problem is with civil discussion that’s is all about reasons, reasoning and listening to each other.WHAT kind of civil “discussion” one can have with Weegee when its interests are fundamentally different (and actually even contrary) to that of the playerbase up to and including game quality therefore they actively NOT doing it??
Then, it is a gradual escalation, things being first “silly” then “stupid” then “idiotic” then “retarded” and then “just go and eff yourself”
But the sad part is that ALL of that is legit and warranted. Weegee didnt do ONE thing right since then and including the Cv rework. And people are tired to keep telling them HOW stupid things (and HOW MANY!!!) they are doing.
@Mantose262 While I can agree this has been a problem since the internet started, and even before, I do think that moon has a point that it is getting progressively more pronounced/worse. It seems society as a whole is preaching tolerance for many things, yet overall is becoming less tolerant, and certainly more hostile, as the years progress.
Subs are sort of hard to play but too many of them in a game certainly make it less fun.
They are not hard to play. I got a 6 kill game in ranked by shotgunning. It’s braindead
@CorsairCombat13no you didnt
@Zackary Fraser I-56 moment
I agree with you.
There is not much more to say about this topic. There will be always enough hate groups of something.
I played Colossus in convoy mode, team guy in Colbert went crazy complaining about subs and CVs in match he doesn”t want to deal with.
He went open water pumping shells in enemy ships and only happy guy in match was enemy Daisen player who finished Colbert. I got report from that match, but it happens, I try to become immune to it.
But same with subs, you can”t expect much positive karma with them, but once you get single +1 surviving and defending own convoy, it makes you twice as much satisfied.
Once I pick Weimar in brawls, it collects +1 even my ship makes relatively more damage than my T8 sub.
So there is clear logic to it….Hate doesnt depend that much on ship or boat, but on lack of will to deal with them or if you cant….then try avoid them and let team do the job.
It is usually what I do when I meet strong player in enemy team….its kind war of attrition:D
It would be good if this tactics would work on these comments too.
Btw there is also ton of DD players who either dont wish to spot enough for team or simply cant, if they have say DD dependant on smoke( jap gunboats). Then both CV or sub is handy for team.
Its clear that BB player is last one who should go spotting, right? D
Oh I don’t know. I have had games in conquerors and thunders (yes alleged backline he spammers) where had over 100k spotting damage.
Generally yes don’t expect to go actively spotting but it can be done.
I only have one sub, the Undine, and it’s as slow as a dreadnought on the surface, and once its dive capacity is exceeded, it takes ages to refill. It only has torps in the bow, and they don’t do a lot of damage. I find playing that sub very difficult, so I haven’t bothered with any others. One positive thing happened for me recently. I actually did whatever the missions were to get Popeye as a commander for the Colorado. So funny!
I just wanted to let everyone know how happy I am to see humans actually still play this game.
I have been playing the last couple of days and have only seen a few humans at the lower tier. 99% of the ships I have been fighting are bots in random battles.
Do people not play in the random battles game mode at lower tiers?
ASW lines may help alleviate the sub problems.
Yeah submarines are also mega easy to kill, and even before people were complaining about CVs people were crying about destroyers before that so its just more of the same. Totally spot on about echo chambers.
Here’s an Idea, what if you expanded the Team size and Map size? Wasn’t WG testing something like that? I don’t know if it would help, but I think if there’s gonna be 3 Subs a side, there’s should be more ships per side to accommodate. I also just want to see even larger maps tho 😅
Submarines aside, I think you made a pretty good point. As a long time player, I think this sums up everything I felt towards the playerbase. Whatever it is the players don’t like, they trash-talked it like there’s no tomorrow. Of course, they’re not always 100% wrong, but there’s always more to it that they’re not willing to admit. I’m happy that you’re keeping a neutral attitude towards everything that happened towards the game. That’s the reason I always enjoy your videos.
I totally agree with submarines being not easy to play. Tier 6 I had fun with U-69 and got good frags, when I got U-190 it went downwards pretty hard. I made 10 games and lost all of them. Maybe three torpedoes hit because suddenly everyone knew how to dodge them properly and I could never get close enough for a shotgunning run. Most of the times I see a Tier 8 sub it’s gone once it is spotted but if the player knows what he is doing it gets pretty crazy. Exactly the same with CVs. Or any other decent ship really. But I would surely play subs more if I had the patience for it and git gud with them.
I have to agree that playing a sub is not as easy as it seems, at least a good sub player, and I would say truly good sub players are a rarity. I would say I am a slightly better than average sub player myself, but often times how good of a game you have is like any other class, it depends on your team and what situation you find yourself in. I don’t care how good of a player you are or what ship you are in, if half of your team gets wiped out and you are getting the focus of several opposing ships your lifespan will generally be pretty short. I will say contrary to some of the comments I have seen here, the key to countering a good sub player is not so much running away as focusing on them to remove them from the match as quickly as possible, and never bore sighting on a particular threat to be oblivious to the other threats around you. I was in a match yesterday where a quite good torp DD player had stayed alive, pretty much solo at his cap point, for an entire match. However, when he finally had to deal with a sub who had been pestering him the entire time he put to much attention into trying to hit the sub with his guns when it surfaced and ended up eating a couple torps he should have been easily able to avoid. They didn’t kill him, but left him as easy pickings for the CV to finish off very shortly after he finally killed the sub. Also, as good a DD player as he proved to be, he didn’t know how to counter a sub, he dumped all of his depth charges when he was still 0.5 km from the sub, doing no damage, and by the time he was actually right beside the sub he had no depth charges ready to go. If he had played it smart, the sub should have been dead a couple minutes before he actually died and he would have eaten at least one less torp.