Hey guys, today we take a look at three older ship lines and how they’ve been victims of powercreep, and also at potential solutions, enjoy!
Outro Music: Stranger Think- C418
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No one even remembers the Pan-Asian DDs anymore, sad times.
@Razvan Anghel I mean Chung Mu is good too but I see what you mean
@ANUBHAV SHARMA if you limit yourself to only using guns on the Smalland then you are doing it wrong. It’s the same as IJN DDs only using torps … The SMalland torps are very effective against DDs to flush them out of smoke etc. f.e. I used the F3s on Kitakaze a lot to kill DDs in smoke and that’s not a torpedo boat …
@Lubos Soltes The torps are useful against DDs, and i do use the smaland torps. But Yeuyang torps are better becoz of that element of surprise for BBs, Cruisers. And for DDs you have radar and gearing guns.
@ANUBHAV SHARMA you have Gearing guns but not Gearing DPM or armor … if the ship had Gearing DPM (as it once had) it would be very good … as it is now, it is inferior and not being able to torp DDs when you have no other tools to deal with them is a disadvantage …
Probably the other russian dd line is one of the other most powercrept lines, specifically the RN dd line just feels strictly better
@Mrz3r0 yeah. But I feel like the tech tee is a bit messed up and need a rework like the American cruisers and Soviet cruisers and Japanese DDs. but tbh Tier 2-4 are still in my port not sold out besides the tier 9 and 10, becoz V-25, G-101 and V-170 are the best DDs at those tiers for me and I win games with them more often then not and finally they more fun than even Gneisenau ranked where you destroy the entire enemy team with Guns and torps and secondaries in a speed run from the north side of the map to south side (I am a Gneisenau main) while your team does jackshit
@Lubos Soltes Ok you forgot the things that makes the Z-46 a competitive ship in its tier bracket. You mentioned the DPM being trash compared to others which is true. However the effective DPM is not, its actually has one of the best effective DPM against BBs and Cruisers becoz of the pin which is 32mm. Two the concealment is very good, its American levels which is a good and useful characteristic. Third your wrong about the Hydro, its 5.5km range and couple that with the good concealment, it can push into caps and screen for torps, as well as spot DDs and annihalate them with their powerful AP. I just mentioned the AP, and while the pin isn’t great its enough to pin most BBs upper belt and its alpha is pretty damn high, and couple that with the good reload, it crushes broadside DDs with AP, and does some good dmg to BBs too. And finally its turret layout is good. It has good angles towards the forward with the back guns, and it has more guns on the back which means while kiting away it can farm down whatever its chasing down. The torps are also good, as they have the fastest reload if you don’t count the french, and with the torp module at slot three they do 70 knots ish. And the range is workable. The HP on Z-46 is very very good. The Z-46 is truly a good Hybrid. Its not trash and fairly competitive.
@Lubos Soltes Also I never eat full ap dmg in Z-52 but ok
@ANUBHAV SHARMA either the game client and wowsft are lying or the ship detection is really only 5km on the hydro …
@ANUBHAV SHARMA I’ve nerver tried Tier 5, but I had played the Tier 4, that was awsome but back in the days. idk for 2-3 Years xD?
Well, the issue is that the true solution to powercreep is not to introduce OP ships, but the solution we get: nothing or overbuff
You are right that the Japanese cruisers are really powercrept, but you stated the wrong reasons.
One Zao was a mid range ship – long range ship, and she had amazing stealth so you can fire, and go undetected. Second you mentioned the armor, 30mm is the standard cruiser armor. The armor was never the problem. It was the HP. Like there are CLs with more HP than Zao. So what Zao needs is not an improved heal, but more HP.
The German cruisers aren’t really that powercrept, it’s the German DDs that are powercrept. Also Roon and Hindenburg don’t need improved heal, as they pack one more heal than other cruisers. They need armor piercing shell penetration buff, a torp buff to 8km, and some subtle armor changes (since the ship wasn’t built irl, little armor buffs won’t matter).
Just unnerf the HP of the Zao. When stealthfire was a “feature” of the Zao, they removed I think 10k HP with the reason “it can stealthfire”. When they removed stealthfire, they didnt return the HP to the Zao.
3:59 that’s the opposite, the ap has good alpha but as 203 they have medium/weak pen.
@Krzysztof Narloch exactly. arczer25 1 has no clue about the mechanics if he’s just rattling off the maximum damage without actually taking into account what is required for that maximum damage to actually be hit with a shot (nailing the target’s citadel) which, with the poor penetration over medium to long range? good fuckin luck.
@Krzysztof Narloch even pen’s alone deal crapton of damage… (23364 of potential dmg)
also not every AP hit is citadel hit ever from higher penning cruisers
@Reign Genesis go away bot
I’m so sad to say this, but it’s more correct to say literal garbage penetration rather than “medium/weak”, I mean now my Hindenburg has literally worse AP than the new joke-ship called Elbing
@killerblood3al4 guys, i said medium/weak because he speaks about the entire line of german cruisers. At T7 Yorck (ok has 210 mm) has the best pen of any cruiser other than Zara, which it equals. At T8 and 9 the penetration it’s beaten by the Us and italian cruisers (russian 180 also but that bias is on steroids) but it beats french and ijn ap pen, whilist at T10 it falls behind literally every other 200+ mm gun but it’s compensated by the good dpm. I played some Petro lately and i have to say that i am more probable to get a citadel on a BB than on a cruiser because the dispersion is quite bad and on cruiser i get a lot of overpens if they’re broadside, Petro ap is better used like DM on slightly angled cruisers where the extra pen + imrpoved pen angles can really do a lot of damage. But i usually score more citadels on cruisers in my alaska even though it has lower dpm and reload and slower shells, but that plunging fire + the more consistent accuracy really helps finding the citadel.
Hindy ap even though has lower pen than all the others 203s, has the greatest alpha of all of them, Venezia and Zao which both have better pen than hindy but also dm get 4800 and 5400 alpha respectively, and neither has the reload/dpm of the Hindy, so do your conclusions…
I remember one time playing the Kiev, where I was on a flank which collapsed, so I ran. But I couldn’t just couldn’t get unspotted even speed boosting away. It turns out that there was a Le Fantastique shadowing me the whole time and there was nothing I could do about it as he was both faster and stealthier. And when my hp was low enough he just popped reload booster and killed me before i could get even a couple salvos off
I’d not call the German cruiser line powercrept. Worcester isn’t even comparable to Hindenburg, one having 30 mm of pen, the other 51 mm. Not to talk about stuff like ballistics, viability of AP, etc. If an Austin, Smolensk or Worcester powercreep Hindenburg, why don’t they also powercreep Zao, Des Moines or Venezia (Austin has SAP after all /s)? No, to be honest, Hindenburg still has its place as a long ranged reliable damage dealer with no need for penetration-boosting skills, just penning most decks with HE regardless. Short of Des Moines, it has the best heavy cruiser HE dpm and among the best ballistics. And no, alpha damage still matters (not that Hindenburg’s fire setting is bad), otherwise I wonder why Venezia or Petro, ships that are absolutely garbage at doing DoT are even good. Hindenburg at T10 is what Mainz is at T8. Not the biggest HE dpm, but very respectable for the range, fire output, HE pen and ballistics. And an insane dpm machine if you find broadsides to pepper with AP. The one real shit design in the line is Hipper, but that’s a long-standing issue, not a line that is powercrept.
IJN line I agree more with, though I’d say, it is mostly high tiers. Mid-tiers, Furutaka to Mogami are still very good to great at their tiers. Ibuki and Zao get absolutely overshadowed by Drake and Goliath as ships that befit the meta more in the same role. Because even if a Zao has better accuracy and nominally better dpm than Goliath, the Goliath just has the pen to not care and it is worlds apart in survivability, where Goliath has almost half as much more hp plus superheal and some BS armour scheme. Zao gets citpenned by a Shikishima and is half hp for the rest of the game, Goliath gets citpenned (if it doesn’t just ricochet off) and loses a third of its hp, repairing half of that damage next time superheal is economical. And even if you don’t care about the Goliath (like most people who just ignore that the ship exists, because of the poor rep the line started out with), the Hindenburg has the same ballistics, better dpm, more range and sets more fires and all you pay is speed and stealth. But whenever a CV shows up, you don’t want the stealth anyway. As for buffs, the most natural would be to undo Zao hp nerf from years ago. There’s no reason Zao needs to be this fragile.
As for DD lines, Soviet DDs are obvious example, one other example imo would be PA DDs though. Yueyang got absolutely nerfed into the ground and even the radar niche, just take Smaland. Chung Mu and Hsienyang have become handicapped USN DDs after every cruiser now basically runs hydro (defAA being absolute dogshit) and there is literally no reason to play this line beyond T7. Not that T7 is the god it used to be, Gadjah Mada itself is basically a handicapped Jervis and Fushun would be better than Gnevny, but if that is all you want, buy an Anshan. Jianwei was always questionable and then we are at low tiers. Having played this line in 2021, there is literally no reason to ever invest in this and it is telling of class priorities WG has that basically no other class has a single line of ships that has been left to rot in a terrible state for this long. Hindenburg got buffs, German BBs got buffs, RN CVs get buffs, just DD lines can be left for years in an obviously grossly underpowered state (Yueyang isn’t just non-meta, it just is grossly underarmed with the 4s reload). Same with Khaba that basically was questionable for years too.
What is the main problem with wows is the extremely slow, almost glacial speed, in witch they tune existing lines (this goes for wot as well). I play wow and there are constant fixes and changes in classes. WG always said that it takes time to do it. In the past i would believe them but now… They are quite big to be having that indie company speed in fixing stuff.
How long before the WOW team bring in “GOLD” ammo ?.
With 1000 percent fire chance and only give it to the filthy cruisers
The sad part is that I do see them introducing premium ap shells with massively improved pen angles and 0% to overpen some time down the road.
@fluffysnowgryph they not gonna. WG know they cant balance gold ammo. Just image Yamato with gold ammo or Shikishima or every BB with overmatch capable guns. Also currently there is no ammo count. World of Tanks is different things again because most of the tanks has 1 gun and no more.
1. 4:02 German AP was exactly the opposite. Hindenburg had the greates AP alpha (both per shell and per salvo, cause 12 guns) at 5900, even greater than Moskva (which had bigger guns than Hindenburg). However, they really lacked in penetration. Also, hindenburg seemed really fine with the previous captain skill set. I got her like a year ago. The line was a pain (Took me 3 years to get past Nurnberg, that’s how painful that ship was), with Roon the only ‘decent’ thing. But Hindenburg was a beast. So, a bit of a heal and turret rotation would do miracles for her
2. Soviet DDs. The issue with them, which I’ve also encountered now that I’m ‘grinding’ the US line is the nonsensical progression. I’ve got Trashcan. Well, I’ve got it 2-3 years ago, but after getting smolensk A couple of years ago, I really got the hang of HE gunboat and tried to play Trashcan like a Smolensk. AND IT WORKED AMAZINGLY. I would say they are really close after the commander rework, with smolensk losing it’s range. HOWEVER, I did take a look at Khabarovsk and I was like: WHAT THE HELL IS THIS? The guns have worse range than the one on trashkent. Reload also doesn’t seem like an improvement. This makes no sense. Strangely, I’ve noticed something similar while going from Farragut to Mahan and I simply cannot comprehend who came up with those stupid ideeas. You literally have the same gun caliber, but up a tier. Yeah, you get 1 more turret, but this doesn’t mean you should nerf the bloody range. Oh, right. Khaba also have worse torpedoes than Trashcan. Unfortunetly, I don’t see a solution for Soviet DDs. The French MRB is such a big advantage that it simply makes no sense to play Khabarovsk. It means a Kleber can come on top in both a knife fight and casual HE spam. Maybe give Khaba the range of Trashcan, torpedoes like the French or Germans and perhaps an improved heal. An interesting choice would be adding a short range radar. The low reload speed means they won’t be able to really take advantage of it like an Orkan or a Smaland, but it might be a nice tool to have in order to get ambushes and give you a chance in close quarters or some utility.
3. As for Zao… I really hated that ship when I started 5 years ago. I am honestly glad to not see her around. DD manouverability with HE damage that could make a Yamato trade it’s AP for it. That thing was just broken. And then they gave it 12km torps for no freaking reason, maybe to annoy the crap out of it. Unlike Hindenburg and Khaba, which actually got nerfed before entering obscurity, Zao got buffed. If anything, the fact that you consider such a line powercrept shows the sorry state of the game. Yea, Zao got powercrept first when Yoshino got introduced, because it did almost the same things as Zao, but literally better: better HE, better torps, better range, better AP, better health. Then came Thunderer and Smolensk.
Next most power crept lines: _any AP focused BB in the game purely because _*_overpen abuse_*
Um. Apart from the British and Italians, all BBs are AP focused. I didn’t get it
No because he spam ap focus bb is obsolete a good thunderer could straight up beat any bb in duel
@gian Kagara any BB that isn’t a well played legendary Yamato, coz AP overmatches all of Thunderer, and Yamato HE is pretty spicy
@ANUBHAV SHARMA that’s exactly what he’s saying bruh
Things which don’t break slow down the economy. With this in mind the WG cycle is like this:
Introduce OP Ship -> maximise sell -> break it ( nerf or withdraw) -> replace it with other OP ship -> maximise sell….
How to make the tankiest cruiser in the game: remove all armor.
make sure you give it a very thin torpedo buldge though so it doesn t get he or sap citadeled
* sad Montana noises * 🙁
I hear u m8
Wonder why wargaming hates Germany so much to make most of its ships bad in the game
@Jerzey Boy1995 japan dd’s are the best
What about the american dd line, its been heavily power crept by the british as a good all round kind of destroyer
the RN gets simular guns and concealment plus hydro and a better smoke
I miss the days when everyone was freaking out about the “Mega-Zao”
IJN torp boat driver is the hardest job in the game right now. The Shima often faces 1/2 to 2/3 of the red team having hydro to spot your torps, 1/4 to 1/3 of the non DDs having radar, CVs in half or more of the matches, and every other DD line being able to take you in a gun fight, and many are faster and/or so close in detection range any advantage you have is negligible.
Let’s not forget how hard it is to land torps IJN because they can be seen at ~2km distance or further with a really wide spread to get between.
Zao got her hit points nerfed because she was so good at open water stealth firing. When open water stealth firing was removed from the game Zao did not, and still hasn’t, gotten her old hit points back.
IJN Torpedoboats: Drinks powercreep for breakfast, lunch and dinner.